1 1 2 STATE OF NEW YORK : COUNTY LEGISLATURE 3 COUNTY OF ONONDAGA 4 ------------------------------------------- 5 In the Matter of 6 Resolution Regarding 7 New York State SAFE Act 8 ------------------------------------------- 9 PUBLIC HEARING in the above matter, conducted at the County Legislative Chambers, 401 10 Montgomery Street, 4th Floor, Syracuse, New York before, JOHN F. DRURY, CSR, RPR, Notary Public in 11 and for the State of New York, on March 4, 2013 at 6:30 p.m. 12 MEMBERS OF ONONDAGA COUNTY LEGISLATURE PRESENT: 13 DISTRICT NAME 14 1st Brian F. May 2nd John C. Dougherty 15 3rd Chester A. Dudzinski, Jr., 4th Judith A. Tassone. 16 5th Kathleen A. Rapp 17 6th Michael E. Plochocki 8th Christopher J. Ryan 18 9th Robert J. Andrews 10th Kevin A. Holmquist, Chair Pub Safety 19 11th Patrick M. Kilmartin 20 12th David H. Knapp, Chair Ways & Means 13th Derek T. Shepard, Jr. 21 14th Casey E. Jordan 15th J. RYAN McMAHON, Chairman 22 16th Monica Williams 17th Linda R. Ervin 23 Clerk Debbie Maturo 24 Reported By: 25 John F. Drury, CSR, RPR Court Reporter 471-7397 2 1 2 INDEX TO SPEAKERS 3 SPEAKERS PAGES 4 SANDY SCHEPP Onondaga County Clerk 5 5 JOHN BALLONI Chief Sheriff's Assoc 11 6 SCOTT ARMSTRONG Firearms Instructor 37 DAVID GAY 44 7 MIKE MASTROGIOVANNI Shooter's Committee 46 STEPHEN WOWELKO Sportsmen's Clubs 50 8 KAY KEELEY 54 9 JOHN BUTLER Onondaga Sheriff 55 RACHEL NEUPERT 57 10 WALTER DIXON 60 GEORGE BUSCO, JR. 64 11 DAVID SIMMONS Federation of Sportsmen 65 12 ALLEN OAKES Disabled Vietnam Vet 66 GEORGE RATERMAN 68 13 SCOTT CHATFIELD CNY Conservatives, Inc 70 LEE SCHAPLEY 74 14 MICHAEL GOSSON 75 15 GARY SCHOONMAKER 78 BILL ADAMS 81 16 RICK NASH 83 LUKE GERMAIN T/Salina GOP 87 17 ADRIENNE LeBLANQ 89 18 FRED NEFF Federation Sportsmen 92 BILL ANDREWS 101 19 LON KEELEY 109 DAVID STEVENSON 110 20 JOHN STEELE NYSEPA 117 21 DANIEL IRWIN 118 KEITH DEWITT 120 22 KEN HOWE 123 GUY CHAPMAN 124 23 24 25 3 1 Chairman McMahon 2 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Let's call the 3 meeting to order, please. Legislator 4 Knapp, please lead us in the Pledge of 5 Allegiance. 6 (Pledge of Allegiance recited). 7 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Thank you 8 everyone for waiting tonight. We want 9 to get this meeting going and give 10 everybody an opportunity to give their 11 opinion. So I would ask just a couple 12 ground rules from the beginning. This 13 is a joint Ways and Means/Public Safety 14 Committee meeting. There is not an 15 actual resolution that's being 16 considered tonight that has specific 17 language to the SAFE Act. What we're 18 doing tonight is we're going to hear the 19 impact from the local outfits, how this 20 legislation from the State of New York, 21 the impact it has on local governments, 22 from counties, to clerks offices to the 23 sheriff's office. 24 We will then debate some of the 25 merits of the SAFE Act as passed by the 4 1 Chairman McMahon 2 New York State Legislature. We then 3 want to hear from you on how this 4 impacts your lives as citizens. So 5 there will be a public comment period. 6 The public comment period will be two to 7 three minutes per individual. Please 8 respect that. There are a lot of people 9 that want to speak. Once you do speak 10 we would ask that you potentially circle 11 through and come back in so that other 12 speakers in the back or on the hallways 13 can come in and speak. 14 And just to touch on this before we 15 get started, part of, some of the flaws 16 with this law is the process in which it 17 was enacted. And part of the reason why 18 we're here tonight is even though 19 whatever resolution this body votes on 20 tomorrow, it's a memorializing 21 resolution, no matter what it says. It 22 doesn't mean anything. The State of New 23 York doesn't have to do anything, but 24 it's important to us as Legislators that 25 you know how it impacts us and us doing 5 1 Schepp 2 our jobs. It's important for us to know 3 how you feel. And I think we'll get 4 through that tonight. 5 So saying that I want to go to and 6 call up Sandy Schepp our county clerk, 7 to give us some points of view from the 8 County Clerks Association, and Sandy if 9 you could just let us know what your 10 association has done and what some of 11 the bullets are and how this law impacts 12 your ability to do your job. 13 SANDY SCHEPP: Thank you, Chairman 14 McMahon, Chairman Holmquist and Chairman 15 Knapp and fellow Legislators. As you 16 know the New York State Association of 17 County Clerks has represented all 62 18 elected or appointed County Clerks 19 Associations -- has represented all 62 20 elected or appointed clerks within the 21 state for over 75 years. 22 Many county clerks are responsible 23 for filing pistol revolver licenses. 24 The recent New York gun legislation and 25 proposed change in Amendment has 6 1 Schepp 2 potential impact to the county clerks 3 role when administrating the filing of 4 the pistol licenses. With this, the 5 County Clerks Association has issued a 6 position statement to the Governor. And 7 just a few of those bullet statements 8 are that the New York State Clerks 9 Association opposes any unfunded 10 mandates be put down on county 11 taxpayers. They oppose any new fees on 12 New York State gun owners to finance 13 these new provisions in the SAFE Act. 14 Any costs associated by the SAFE Act be 15 borne by the state and the state alone. 16 Additionally, in a rush to push this 17 legislation through, was referred to the 18 three men in the room, there was no 19 accounting for the varying of duties in 20 the chain of command and the licensing 21 throughout New York State. It was not 22 taken into effect, and we have a chart 23 here that the New York State Clerks 24 Association did up, is that when it 25 comes to pistol permits throughout New 7 1 Schepp 2 York State the licensing officer is not 3 always the county clerk. It can be the 4 local judge or it can be the sheriff's 5 department. 6 So in the language of the law when 7 they refer to the licensing officer or 8 the county clerk, in some areas they 9 refer specifically to the county clerk, 10 it's not the county clerk. So in the 11 rush to put this law through there is 12 language that definitely needs to be 13 cleaned up and addressed. 14 Because of this the County Clerks 15 Association also believes the pistol 16 permit application certification as it 17 stands needs to be withdrawn. All of 18 this, there is definite, definite 19 problems with this law. It appears that 20 and I say appears, because once again in 21 a paragraph it says that the 22 recertification done by the New York 23 State Police. 24 In a quick check of the Onondaga 25 County Clerks Association with 39 of 62 8 1 Schepp 2 reporting, there are roughly 508,000 3 pistol permits, and that's just the ones 4 that reported. Several clerks are 5 investing time, money. And the time 6 that they spend they have to hire 7 people, they have to get new software 8 programs, and yet the duties of who is 9 going to be responsible ultimately are 10 not yet clear. The state troopers are 11 saying that it's still not their 12 responsibility to handle this, and yet 13 in the law it's written the state police 14 will take this over in approximately 15 2018. 16 With all these considerations and 17 everything else at stake, we urge the 18 County Legislature to repeal this and 19 seriously take the comments of those 20 here before them and please take to 21 heart comments that will be here before 22 you tonight. Thank you. 23 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: I do agree we 24 have a wonderful county clerk, but if we 25 could keep the applause to a minimum and 9 1 Schepp Q&A 2 at the end of the night we can all give 3 a strong applause for each other. So is 4 there any questions for the clerk from 5 any members of the Committee? Any 6 Legislators have any questions for the 7 clerk? Legislator Knapp? 8 QUESTIONS BY LEGISLATOR KNAPP: 9 Q. I'm not sure a question for you or Chief 10 Balloni. But currently how many permits are there 11 of various counties and Onondaga County out right 12 now? 13 A. There was a survey done several years 14 ago and then we took the totals from those and 15 edited to what has been additional to that and 16 there is roughly what we counted about 45,000 in 17 Onondaga County. Of that is an approximate figure 18 and maybe Chief Balloni has a more close figure. 19 It's hard to tell. 20 Because that figure, in fact when we 21 were down in Albany a few weeks ago harassing the 22 state troopers, which was real fun. Some of the 23 pistol permits out there listed, some of them 24 included I know Eleanor Roosevelt is still listed 25 as a pistol permit holder. 10 1 Schepp Q&A 2 Q. Currently these are, correct me if I'm 3 wrong, all on 3x5 cards basically in a file, very 4 manual? 5 A. Ours are filed with a fold sheet and I 6 know the sheriff has a more computerized program. 7 But every office has, ever county has a different 8 system of doing a filing system. That was another 9 aspect of this, is not taken into consideration of 10 a uniform code of how to do this going forward, no 11 time to allow uniform code to be implemented. 12 LEGISLATOR KNAPP: Thank you. 13 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Any other 14 questions for the clerk? Legislator 15 Ryan? 16 QUESTIONS BY LEGISLATOR RYAN: 17 Q. You said there was possibly an unfunded 18 mandate could come in, is there any way you could 19 possibly put a dollar amount on that, any 20 expectation? 21 A. One of the counties, minimally $4,000, 22 that included man hours. I've got a picture here 23 from Rome County, she to date has approximately, 24 she calls 24 inches of Opt Outs. Those have to be 25 inputted into a program and, you know, kept track 11 1 Balloni 2 of. So we're talking about man hours of the Opt 3 Out program. We're talking about in addition to 4 that now we have people who suddenly want their 5 pistol permit which is their absolute right to 6 have one. So you're dealing with the additional 7 influx of traffic that's coming in in addition to 8 the Opt Out program. On top of that down the 9 road the recertification program which to date we 10 still have no clarification on who's going to be 11 handling that program. 12 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Any other 13 questions? Thank you, Sandy. Chief 14 Balloni. Chief could you come up and 15 give the position of the New York State 16 Sheriff's Association, please. 17 CHIEF JOHN BALLONI: Mr. Chairman, 18 ladies and gentlemen of the Legislature 19 and ladies and gentlemen. My name is 20 John Balloni, I'm a Chief Deputy in the 21 Onondaga County Sheriff's Office and I 22 thank you for allowing my to speak this 23 evening. I would like to encourage the 24 Legislature to consider the position of 25 the State Sheriff's Association when 12 1 Balloni 2 formulating your resolution to this 3 state. It was developed by 4 independently elected law enforcement 5 officers, many of them responsible for 6 provisions of the pistol permit law as 7 it currently exists, and we think we 8 have a certain degree of expertise to 9 share. 10 I would like to cover some of, I've 11 given all of the Legislators a copy of 12 the New York State Sheriff's Association 13 list of concerns, and I'd appreciate you 14 going through them. I will not read 15 them all here tonight but I would like 16 to briefly highlight some of the 17 concerns we have as long as -- as well 18 as some of the helpful provisions. 19 And I'm going to start with the 20 helpful provisions because quite frankly 21 it's a shorter list. Restricting pistol 22 permit information to be released in 23 FOIL is good. But we would rather that 24 provision allowed people to Opt In 25 rather than Opt Out. We don't feel it's 13 1 Balloni 2 in the best interests of the citizens, 3 to disclose to potential criminals all 4 the residences in which a gun may be for 5 their ability to steal it, and all the 6 residences which a gun may not be for 7 their ability to perhaps target those 8 individuals. 9 Enhancing the penalty for the 10 killing of first responders is even more 11 appropriate, given the recent killing of 12 two firefighters in Webster, New York. 13 Safe storage requirements of weapons 14 are reasonable. Increased penalties for 15 illegal use of weapons is also a good 16 provision. 17 On to our concerns. First, the 18 assault weapon definition. We believe 19 that the assault weapon definition is 20 too broad and we believe only law- 21 abiding gun owners will be affected by 22 these new provisions while criminals 23 will still be able to have and use 24 whatever they want. 25 Inspection of schools by state 14 1 Balloni 2 agencies. Something better left to the 3 sheriff's and local police authorities 4 that work in the schools every day. 5 (Applause) I feel like I'm really 6 getting an inflated ego, this is just my 7 opinion. 8 Reduction of magazine capacity will 9 not reduce gun violence and will 10 unfairly limit the ability of law- 11 abiding citizens to purchase firearms in 12 New York State. 13 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: If we could save 14 the applause for after please, thank you. 15 CHIEF JOHN BALLONI: Much as I enjoy 16 it. Five year recertification of pistol 17 permits by the state. Any work should 18 be done locally by the sheriff's office 19 responsible, not the state. Sales of 20 ammunition need clarification. Law 21 enforcement exceptions must be 22 clarified. Currently I could only 23 protect the first seven of you they 24 attack. 25 Finally, this method, the method of 15 1 Balloni Q&A 2 this law's passage without public debate 3 should be a concern to everyone. 4 Especially a law that limits the 5 constitutional right should only be 6 passed, and I quote, "with caution and 7 great respect for those constitutional 8 boundaries." Further it should only be 9 done when the benefit to be gained is so 10 great and certain that it far outweighs 11 the damage done by the constriction of 12 individual liberty. It is far from 13 certain that all or even many of the 14 provisions of the SAFE Act will have any 15 significant effect in reducing gun 16 violence. Thank you. 17 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Chief we have some 18 questions from members. Legislator 19 Holmquist. 20 BY LEGISLATOR HOLMQUIST: 21 Q. Thank you, Chief. There is somewhere 22 over 40,000 legally registered pistols in Onondaga 23 County. You've been in law enforcement many many 24 years, to your knowledge how many of those legally 25 held pistols have been used, commissioned in the 16 1 Balloni Q&A 2 use of a crime, to your knowledge? 3 A. I'm sure some have, but I in my career I 4 have never arrested a person with a legal pistol 5 permit for any gun related crime. 6 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Legislator Jordan. 7 BY LEGISLATOR JORDAN: 8 Q. That was basically the question I was 9 going to ask. Can you give us, I guess a time 10 horizon, I mean you indicated to the best of your 11 knowledge you're not aware of any violent crimes 12 that have been committed by individuals with gun 13 permits. Over what period of time are you talking 14 about? 15 A. I just am speaking from my individual 16 background, Mr. Jordan. But I'm sure that as I 17 talk to most of my colleagues in law enforcement 18 we remember and we discuss very few gun, again 19 legal gun owners that were arrested for gun 20 related crimes. That's not to say it does not 21 happen, but it's extremely rare. 22 The people that apply for and get gun 23 permits are those individuals that are very 24 concerned with abiding by the law to begin with. 25 So you could expect, I think reasonably, that this 17 1 Balloni Q&A 2 is a group you least have to control. 3 Q. In discussions with other law 4 enforcement personnel has any other officers that 5 you've spoken to indicated that they're aware of 6 anybody who committed a violent crime who 7 possessed a gun permit? 8 A. Again, no, I have not had anybody come 9 to me with that information. 10 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Thank you. Any 11 other questions for the Chief? 12 BY LEGISLATOR KNAPP: 13 Q. Again, roughly 40, 45,000 registered 14 pistol permits, have you gotten any guidance from 15 the state yet as far as with the five year 16 renewals what that process is going to be, what 17 should be taken into consideration, time commitment? 18 Obviously that's another unfunded mandate for the 19 county because we're going to have to mandate the 20 people to do that. What guidance are you getting 21 on that? 22 A. The state police, who don't have all the 23 answers on this by a long shot at this particular 24 point, have been handling some public meetings, 25 frequently with this kind of a turnout. And they 18 1 Balloni Q&A 2 don't have all the answers yet. And the guidance 3 is, to say the least, the law is unclear. That's 4 one of the things we would like is some more 5 clarification in a number of provisions in the 6 law. Again, I didn't get into reading our entire 7 position but I would encourage the Legislature to 8 look at that, it's a reasonable thing, and I think 9 that we've pointed out a number of reasonable 10 parts of this legislation that quite frankly 11 should be carried forward. 12 But we are concerned, we don't have the 13 manpower to do the computer entries on the Opt Out 14 forms. We do not have the personnel to keep up 15 with the increase in the demand for pistol permits 16 or those legal gun owners that are going out and 17 buying additional guns. It is, you know, as I 18 mentioned earlier in discussing this, it's a law 19 with many many unintended consequences. We're 20 having people that come to see us and ask for a 21 pistol permit that quite frankly never thought 22 about getting one, but now they're concerned with 23 exercising their constitutional right; they're not 24 hunters and fisherman and sportsmen, they are just 25 citizens concerned with their Second Amendment 19 1 Balloni Q&A 2 rights. You know, I would be very concerned and I 3 would think the turnout would be equally 4 horrendous if we were talking about limiting and 5 constricting First Amendment rights to emergency 6 legislation, which is not even debated. 7 BY CHAIRMAN McMAHON: 8 Q. Chief, in your opinion, I'm a kid from 9 the south side of the city of Syracuse, so one of 10 my frustrations in reviewing this bill, and I'm 11 asking your opinion on this, is the impact it has 12 on urban gun violence and the ability to get 13 illegal guns off the streets and/or funding 14 programs that we now help get illegal guns off the 15 street: Operation impact, Operation Snub, Cash 16 For Gun Programs. Is there anything in this bill 17 that promotes a big five urban agenda to get 18 illegal guns off the street? 19 A. No, sir, I do not believe there is 20 anything in that legislation that goes to that 21 kind of an issue. 22 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Legislator Jordan. 23 BY LEGISLATOR JORDAN: 24 Q. Thank you again, Mr. Chairman. Chief, 25 you touched upon I guess the current number of gun 20 1 Balloni Q&A 2 permits or applications that your department has 3 been receiving. At present how long a delay is 4 there from application to actually getting a gun 5 permit now and what do you anticipate will be the 6 effect of the current law, which now requires 7 re-registration every five years? 8 A. Currently it takes us, we're out 14 9 months waiting for meetings with individuals to 10 get their permits. And this has been largely 11 brought on over the last number of years actually. 12 But we are desperately behind in that currently 13 and we're taking steps to improve that with the 14 assistance of the Legislature. So I want to 15 commend the Legislature for funding the software 16 we need to improve our processes. 17 But that said, part of this is just 18 increased demand. And when we talk about 45,000 19 legal permit holders, you have to recognize that 20 there are many many more guns than that held by 21 these individuals. So this is just, people are 22 going out and buying additional weapons out of 23 concern that they won't be able to get them later. 24 Q. I mean at present is there any 25 requirement that you reapply or renew your gun 21 1 Balloni Q&A 2 permit? 3 A. No, there is no renewal, unless you move 4 you have to renew in the county that you move to, 5 you have to move your permit. 6 Q. So now if there is a requirement that 7 every gun owner reapply and renew their permit 8 every five years, what impact is that going to 9 have on you? 10 A. The state has indicated they're going to 11 do this, though they really haven't described how 12 they're going to do this. If we're required to do 13 that, I have no idea. I will be back before this 14 Legislature asking for lots more money. 15 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Legislator Knapp 16 and then Legislature Ryan. 17 BY LEGISLATOR KNAPP: 18 Q. Chief, the opinion you were just 19 discussing in your presentation which was 20 basically the report from the New York State 21 Sheriff's Association, all 62 counties represented 22 there? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. What was the vote in the Sheriff's 25 Association to send this opinion to the state and 22 1 Balloni Q&A 2 to the rest of us? 3 A. I do not know, I have to say. 4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 58 to 4. 5 A. There you go. I know Sheriff Walsh 6 himself went to Albany on this and spoke and 7 expressed our concern with this law. And I know 8 that he voted for it. 9 Q. He was not one of the four? 10 A. No. 11 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Legislator Ryan. 12 BY LEGISLATOR RYAN: 13 Q. Chief, you kind of touched on the FOIL 14 and also the first responders, but also provisions 15 with respect to mental hygiene law and the mental 16 health provision. Are you for those, against 17 those, do you feel they go far enough? What do 18 you think about those? 19 A. The Sheriff's Association opinion is for 20 those. I will caution that I think we need input 21 from the mental health community. They're very 22 concerned with their ability to do that. And I 23 think that quite frankly we talk about a mental 24 health system, it's not really a system, okay. 25 It's out there, and people are individually 23 1 Balloni Q&A 2 practicing but it's not a unified working together 3 type thing where it's going to be easy to get the 4 information that we need. 5 So we are generally for, particularly 6 the mental health provisions that restrict 7 individuals that are dangerous to themselves or 8 others. We've always been in support of that, we 9 should not give weapons to people with those kind 10 of issues. 11 Q. But in the text of the bill it does 12 speak to also sharing of information across 13 agencies. Do you think that's a good thing too? 14 A. Sharing information is also a good 15 thing, yes, sir. 16 Q. Your opinion, you think that extended 17 Kendra's Law for 2017 is a good one? 18 A. I'm sorry, I don't know the -- I know 19 Kendra's Law but I don't know the provisions of it, 20 whether or not I'm in favor of all of it or not. 21 Q. This extends that bill through this, 22 this legislation extends that, that law. 23 A. Yes, and again I'm not familiar with 24 Kendra's Law enough to discuss the provisions of 25 that. 24 1 Balloni Q&A 2 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Legislator 3 Williams and Legislature Dougherty. 4 BY LEGISLATOR WILLIAMS: 5 Q. Good evening, Chief. The Chairman 6 touched a little bit on this, I represent the 7 south side and southwest side of the city where 8 there is a lot of gun violence. One of the 9 things, and that's why I'm asking your opinion on 10 this, does this law do anything for folks that 11 purchase a gun legally but sell it illegally for a 12 substance, maybe they're on drugs or something. 13 Because I see a lot of that, hear a lot of that 14 happening in my community. So that this law will 15 touch on that? 16 A. It's always been illegal to, particularly 17 if we're talking about handguns, that's always 18 been illegal to do exactly what you just described, 19 to sell it illegally. And it does, in that now 20 between private owners, the NCIC checks are 21 required, in other words you have to have that 22 check to make sure the person you're not selling 23 it to is a felon, even private sales. So the 24 Sheriff's Association is in favor of that 25 restriction. 25 1 Balloni Q&A 2 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: And Legislator 3 Dougherty. 4 BY LEGISLATOR DOUGHERTY: 5 Q. Have you been on the street as a 6 patrolman in any part of your career? 7 A. Yes, I was a patrolman for about 15 8 years, having shot through the ranks to patrolman 9 and stayed there for a long time. And then I was 10 a sergeant for another several after that. 11 Q. So lately I've been led to believe that 12 these assault weapons are used in crimes as a 13 common occurrence. And I see in the State 14 Sheriff's Association opinion on this about it 15 that they feel the assault weapon ban as stated in 16 New York SAFE Act as too broad. In your opinion, 17 with many years of patrolman experience that you 18 have, how often would you expect one of the 19 weapons that are covered in here to be used in a 20 crime? 21 A. Extremely rarely. Most of the time it's 22 not what we would classify as an assault weapon; 23 though they are used, there is those instances, 24 but it's extremely rare. 25 Q. What are the guns most commonly used? 26 1 Balloni Q&A 2 A. Handguns and -- handguns are probably 3 the most common. To be honest there is a move 4 back towards what we in law enforcement call wheel 5 guns by criminals. The old revolvers. And the 6 reason for that is they know that when they go to 7 a scene and they fire a lot of shots, we're able 8 to trace those casings. So the criminals actually 9 are going back to what you would probably call the 10 six shooter. So there is some movement back 11 towards that, because it provides less evidence 12 for the police. 13 Q. And those guns aren't mentioned in this 14 bill at all? 15 A. No, they're not. 16 Q. So it's fair to say that everything that 17 they're outlawing in this New York SAFE Act law is 18 illegal, except for the things they're adding 19 which according to you are rare in the crime anyway? 20 A. I'm sorry, you need to restate that. The 21 basic thing is yes, most of the provisions where 22 they make things illegal are going to have little 23 or no effect on crime. That's our biggest concern. 24 If the provisions of the law were going to 25 significantly impact the safety of our citizenry 27 1 Balloni Q&A 2 then certainly they should be considered carefully 3 in light of the Second Amendment. But we don't 4 believe that most, if any of these provisions in 5 terms of restricting the guns that we're talking 6 about here are going to have any impact or any 7 significant impact on gun violence. We wish it 8 would. We wish it was more carefully considered. 9 LEGISLATOR DOUGHERTY: That's what I 10 suspected but I didn't have the 11 experience to back that up so, thank you 12 for clarifying that? 13 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Further questions 14 for Chief Balloni. Legislator Jordan? 15 BY LEGISLATOR JORDAN: 16 Q. Chief, you indicated that in your 17 opinion the new law will not really have any 18 positive impact I guess in terms of reducing gun 19 violence. Is it in your opinion possible that 20 this new law could actually increase the risk of 21 gun violence because now people, criminals who 22 don't have gun permits, who have guns, they feel 23 emboldened because they may have the opinion that 24 fewer people have guns in their possession so they 25 would feel, I guess safer in committing certain 28 1 Balloni Q&A 2 violent crimes? 3 A. I think they should think very closely 4 about that. Because in fact the laws have the 5 opposite effect and there are many more legal guns 6 possessed by individuals today than the day it was 7 passed. Just judging from our business. 8 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Any other 9 questions? Legislator Knapp? 10 BY LEGISLATOR KNAPP: 11 Q. Chief, a lot of this was precipitated by 12 the horrific acts in Webster and Newtown. Again, 13 in your opinion does this really do anything that 14 would have changed what happened, the SAFE Act? 15 A. I agree that this legislation is a 16 reaction to those horrific things and we should be 17 doing everything in our power to legitimately stop 18 those things. But we don't, the Sheriff's 19 Association as a group obviously does not feel 20 that this would have a significant impact. People 21 with mental issues are not necessarily getting the 22 treatment that they need, which is one reason that 23 I will be before this Legislature asking on behalf 24 of the Sheriff for money to build a mental health 25 unit in our jail. 29 1 Balloni Q&A 2 We have a lot of problems, and 3 unfortunately, and I've said this in an editorial, 4 a letter to the editor that I wrote, unfortunately 5 we want to pass a law and solve some very serious 6 complicated societal problems. And that's not 7 going to happen. We need to spend some serious 8 money taking care of mentally ill individuals. We 9 have to be better at controlling illegal weapons 10 and we have to spend some money in a number of 11 areas that are very complicated and can't be oh 12 well, we passed a law, that problem is off our 13 plate. Because it's not. And this will do little 14 or nothing to change that, my opinion, sir. 15 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Legislator Shepard. 16 BY LEGISLATOR SHEPARD: 17 Q. Thank you, Chief, you had mentioned that 18 straw purchases are a problem that came up through 19 other Legislators. Your Internet, it's already 20 illegal. I'm curious how NCIC checks for private 21 transactions is going to resolve anything if 22 already that activity is illegal. They're just 23 going to skip the NCIC checks, the only people 24 going to comply with it are people that don't 25 commit crimes anyway? 30 1 Balloni Q&A 2 A. I guess it's one more thing to charge 3 them with. Failure to do the NCIC checks as 4 required by law enforcement. And again most legal 5 gun owners, their right to keep and to bear arms 6 is extremely important to them and they're among 7 our least likely people to offend in any way. 8 Q. So that Chief, that additional person on 9 the person breaking the law, a stiffer purchase 10 for the straw purchase, rather than burning 11 everybody with the need for the NCIC check? 12 A. Let me put it this way, if I was selling 13 one of my guns to a private individual, other than 14 a family member that I knew, I have no objection 15 to getting, having that person get a NCIC check, 16 because I don't want to accidently sell it to 17 somebody that has a felony record or somebody that 18 might use that gun improperly. So I think the 19 State Sheriff's, you know, requesting this area 20 for support is appropriate. I don't think that's 21 a serious problem with this law. There are enough 22 serious problems with this law, that's probably 23 not one of them. 24 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Any other 25 questions? Legislature Ryan. 31 1 Balloni Q&A 2 BY LEGISLATOR RYAN: 3 Q. You talked about with the inspection of 4 schools by state agencies. The text of the bill 5 state section 2801-B for the Education Law to 6 establish New York State School Safety Improvement 7 Teams to review, assess and make recommendations 8 on school safety plans submitted by school 9 districts on a voluntary basis. 10 Section 3602 of the Education Law, as 11 amended by Section 1 part A-2 purchase various 12 security devices including municipal safety plan, 13 at a rate 10 percent higher than the current 14 building aid ratio. Is that a problem or are you 15 against the state getting involved in that? 16 A. We have no problem with -- the school 17 safety plans have been a requirement for a long 18 time. We have been in the schools with school 19 resource officers, which by the way the state no 20 longer has any of those. So we're concerned that 21 we're better qualified, local police and the 22 sheriff's offices is far better qualified to go 23 into these schools that we work in every day and 24 assist them with their safety plans, etc. than 25 state agencies. That's our concern, not that 32 1 Knapp 2 their safety plans or that those provisions are 3 not a bad thing at all. 4 Q. What is it you're against with the state 5 agencies, just them telling us? 6 A. We're not against anything except that 7 we think we are better qualified to provide that 8 assistance than state agencies, correct. 9 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Any other 10 questions for the Chief? Thanks Chief. 11 CHIEF BALLONI: Mr. Chairman, thank 12 you very much. 13 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Legislator Knapp 14 do you want to take over this portion of 15 the meeting, please? 16 LEGISLATOR KNAPP: Mr. Chairman, we 17 do have a resolution that's been 18 provided, it's a copy of the New York 19 State Association of Counties resolution 20 that was passed by our organization, 21 sent to the state, we are not going to 22 vote on that resolution tonight. It's 23 just a guideline for discussion 24 purposes. Chairman did you want to? 25 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Yes, thank you 33 1 Chairman 2 Legislature Knapp. Just for the crowd 3 I've never seen so many people in the 4 chambers, so this is great but when you 5 hear the word unfunded mandate, just to 6 give everybody an idea what that is. 7 That's essentially what it sounds like, 8 it's the State of New York telling local 9 governments they have to implement 10 programming and then not giving us the 11 money to pay for it. 12 Just to give you an idea on what 13 unfunded mandates do to county 14 governments, our tax levy, every 15 property tax level we collect is about 16 $141 million. The unfunded mandates 17 passed out by the State of New York are 18 125 percent of our property tax levy. 19 So every tax dollar that you pay in 20 property taxes doesn't even cover the 21 bills we have to pay back to the State. 22 So that's part of what you're 23 hearing from the sheriff's and the 24 clerks and the New York State 25 Association of Counties. These aren't 34 1 Chairman 2 radical positions, we're talking about 3 how it impacts local government, these 4 are facts. 5 And I'll just read the NYSEC 6 position that the County Executives and 7 County Legislators from throughout the 8 state came together and just 9 memorializing to the Governor and the 10 New York State Legislature to amend 11 Chapter 1 of the laws of 2013, New York 12 SAFE Act, to address issues related to 13 county costs and implementation of 14 provisions related to mental health, 15 record keeping and public safety. 16 Just to go over a couple points on 17 this resolution then Chairman Knapp I'll 18 turn it back to you. But whereas this 19 new law require the local Director of 20 Community Service, the county 21 commissioner of mental health, DCS or 22 his or her designee to receive reports 23 from mental health professional who 24 believe their patient is likely to 25 engage in conduct that would result in 35 1 Chairman 2 serious harm to themselves or to others. 3 Whereas the DCS must investigate 4 each report to confirm the identity and 5 professional status of such mental 6 health practitioner, and to determine 7 whether they agree with the 8 practitioner's assessment of the 9 patient, and in the event that the DCS 10 agrees with the assessment made by a 11 reporting mental health practitioner, 12 the DCS shall be required to file a 13 report with the Division of Criminal 14 Justice Services. 15 So Chairman Knapp, I just wanted 16 this to be a discussion point. Not 17 because of what the mental health piece 18 of this legislation says or if it's good 19 or if it's bad. I think many would 20 argue that it's good. But what it 21 doesn't do is it creates a lot of work 22 for our local professionals. And what 23 it doesn't do, like what Albany 24 typically does to us day in and day out, 25 doesn't give us a check to come home and 36 1 May 2 pay for it. And I think that's part of 3 the problem with this aspect of it. 4 That's why NYSAC is taking the position 5 is that it's creating more work for all 6 of us yet it's not paying for the work. 7 So it is a mandate. Chairman Knapp. 8 LEGISLATOR KNAPP: Do any 9 Legislators have any questions or 10 comments concerning the association of 11 County Resolution? Legislator May. 12 LEGISLATOR MAY: Mr. Chairman, I 13 just wasn't to point out that certainly 14 in addition to the unfunded mandates for 15 our agencies in the county, this law 16 really has impact on private mental 17 health professionals as well. And 18 that's a number that we can't quantify 19 either. So it's actually drifting out 20 into the private sector and how people 21 are doing business and creating burdens 22 on them as well. I think that should be 23 pointed out as well. 24 LEGISLATOR KNAPP: Other questions 25 or comments from the Legislators? Being 37 1 Armstrong 2 none, I'll close the discussion of the 3 New York State Association of Counties 4 Resolution and we'll move on to the 5 public comment period. 6 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Thank you. Just 7 a reminder, please when you hear your 8 name give us your name, your address 9 where you live, the organization you're 10 with, and please try to keep your 11 comments to two to three minutes so we 12 can get through everybody tonight. 13 Our first speaker will be Scott 14 Armstrong, a certified firearms 15 inspector, he lives in East Syracuse. 16 David Gay, you're on deck. 17 SCOTT ARMSTRONG: Thank you, Chairman 18 Knapp and Holmquist, and I will be 19 submitting more expansive testimony and 20 will try to contain my comments here for 21 three minutes in respect for your rules. 22 I'm encouraging you to vote in favor 23 of the resolution demanding repeal of 24 the New York SAFE Act because it is 25 based on a fundamentally flawed premise, 38 1 Armstrong 2 certainly the democratic process it is a 3 it's procedure violated if not the State 4 Constitution, certainly the democratic 5 process, and that it is a direct 6 infringement on civil rights and common 7 sense. 8 Let's first look at some of the 9 technical premises of the new law. 10 Semi-automatic rifle uses technology 11 that is over a hundred years old and is 12 found in 75 percent of handguns and 50 13 percent of long guns. 14 Features used to define it as an 15 assault weapon, such as an adjustable 16 stock, pistol grip or barrel shroud are 17 in fact safety devices. They are used 18 to fit the rifle safely to the shooter's 19 size, they provide stability while 20 shooting and prevent a shooter from 21 burning their hands. Despite the claims 22 of politicians, they are widely used for 23 hunting, target shooting, competition 24 and defense. 25 To those lacking firearm knowledge 39 1 Armstrong 2 they are a very poor indicator of 3 criminal potential. According to the 4 New York State Statistics in 2011, New 5 York State had 759 homicides by firearm, 6 only 5 committed by a rifle of any type. 7 There is much talk about the State 8 assuming pistol license management as 9 directed under the legislation, yet the 10 state police have not been shy in 11 indicating since passage that it will 12 remain with counties, and yes, chairman, 13 an unfunded mandate. 14 A pistol license is slated to go 15 from lifetime license to a five year 16 renewable. This will increase 17 administrative traffic with the average 18 sheriff's department by an estimated 400 19 percent. Currently Onondaga County is 20 taking 14 or 15 months just to handle 21 new license applications, never mind the 22 review and renewal of over 45,000 23 existing licenses. There is nothing in 24 the state budget that assist these 25 counties in their additional burden. 40 1 Armstrong 2 The last person with a pistol 3 license that committed a crime in 4 Onondaga County with a legal gun that 5 I'm aware of, and I do follow these 6 things closely, was an adult in the Town 7 of Clay who shot through a sliding glass 8 back door when a drunken college student 9 pounded on the door, thinking he was at 10 a house that there was a party where he 11 was scheduled to be at, which was two 12 doors down. This is a crime, certainly 13 and not safe or proper gun usage I would 14 ever recommend as an instructor. But 15 it's also the very home defense advice, 16 no less than the vice-president of the 17 United States gave the nation just last 18 week. 19 Perhaps the most egregious provision 20 is the limit on magazine capacity to 7 21 rounds. New York already has the most 22 strict limit in the country of 10 23 rounds. Let me be clear, over 98 24 percent of semi-automatic pistols made 25 today do not have 7 round magazine. No 41 1 Armstrong 2 manufacturer plans on making a 7 round 3 magazine. They do not exist. We have 4 mandated something that does not exist. 5 Right now the Governor allows you to 6 load 7 rounds in a 10 round magazine. 7 After April 15th of this year it must be 8 a 7 round magazine. At that point law 9 abiding gun owners, such as myself, will 10 be in the company of rapists, inciters 11 of anarchy, possessors of child 12 pornography and arsonists, all of which 13 New York now views as equivalent or 14 lesser than loading 8 rounds in a 15 magazine designed to hold 10. 16 So what happens to Ra-Lins or Dick's 17 Sporting Goods or Gander Mountain, or 18 any number of smaller shops that we 19 enjoy and frequent when much of their 20 inventory as of April 15th is rendered 21 illegal a little more than a month from 22 today? 23 I'll spare you the lessons on 24 Constitutional law and the infringement 25 of your rights, but it's enough to say 42 1 Armstrong 2 this bill was passed in a procedural 3 rush job, Message of Necessity. And yet 4 many provisions take 15 minutes to take 5 effect. So why the necessity? Why the 6 hurry? Simple. When you are trying to 7 force a bill of dubious legality and 8 fear political opposition, you must ram 9 it through in the middle of the night 10 with no debate, no apologies and any 11 threat of the legislators it takes to 12 get the job done. 13 You cannot convince me that we would 14 have been ill served to have a whopping 15 three days of public debate as the law 16 calls for. There was no debate in the 17 Senate Rules Committee or the Senate 18 floor, not one word. There was no 19 expert testimony given. 20 We are left with a bill that makes 21 criminals of the law abiding, mandates 22 an object that doesn't exist and requires 23 the medical and mental health 24 professionals now violate state and 25 federal patient privacy laws and exposes 43 1 Armstrong 2 them to new levels of medical 3 malpractice liability. 4 Let me wrap up on some issues of 5 common sense. Does it make sense, as we 6 all are in favor of trying to curb gun 7 crime, to further regulate law abiding 8 citizens in the attempt to fight that 9 crime? If you're trying to prevent gun 10 crime why are the majority of the fixes 11 aimed squarely at the people in this 12 room, the law abiding gun owners? 13 In conclusion, as I attended the 14 funeral of six year old Sandy Hook Cub 15 Scout Benjamin Wheeler, and led an honor 16 guard of nearly 200 scouts and scout 17 leaders, barely holding ourselves 18 together, I could only see my own 19 children in the eyes of the poster of 20 Ben looming behind us. 21 I get it. Gun violence is a 22 significant problem. No law abiding gun 23 owner supports using a gun in the 24 commission of a crime. Something must 25 be done, but you guys are elected to 44 1 Gay 2 make smart choices. Your state 3 colleagues forgot that and placed 4 political expediency in front of 5 competence. The end result is a 6 legislative travesty borne of human 7 tragedy. Law abiding gun owners are not 8 the problem, and we are not the enemy. 9 That is until the government unfairly 10 and callously declares us criminals, 11 having done nothing wrong, and done 12 nothing different. I never thought we'd 13 see the day and yet we are here. Please 14 vote in favor of a resolution demanding 15 repeal to the New York SAFE Act. Thank 16 you. 17 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: David Gay, 18 followed by Mike Mastrogiovanni. Please 19 keep the applause to a minimum, please. 20 DAVID GAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman 21 for allowing the public to kind of speak 22 here tonight, thank you Legislators and 23 the public for being here on this very 24 important Constitutional issue. 25 You know, Thomas Jefferson taught us 45 1 Gay 2 two really important things. One, that 3 an unjust law is no law at all. And its 4 rightful remedy to tyranny is 5 nullification. You know, we can sit 6 here and debate repeal of this law and 7 we can pass a non-binding resolution to 8 the state and we can say, hey, state, 9 you better repeal this law. But that 10 doesn't happen if the state doesn't 11 repeal the law or they don't take out 12 these provisions through the Amendment 13 process, these provisions that violate 14 the rights of law abiding citizens. 15 What are we prepared to do about it in 16 Onondaga County? 17 You know, in September 1850, the 18 Fugitive Slave Act was passed. I'm 19 pretty sure everybody in this room would 20 free a slave if they could. In October 21 1851, a jury in Syracuse, New York, 22 bravely and rightly nullified the 23 Fugitive Slave Act, freeing slave Jerry. 24 A former US Senator, and the Governor of 25 New York State were arrested in that act 46 1 Mastrogiovanni 2 of nullification. 3 And what I just want to say to this 4 body, if this isn't repealed we still 5 have a problem on our hands, we still 6 have this law on the books. And I would 7 love if this body would consider 8 nullification of that act on a county 9 level, advising the sheriff and the 10 district attorney and the county 11 executive not to do any orders to 12 prosecute or arrest or try anybody who 13 is caught violating this unjust and 14 unconstitutional law. I think almost 15 all the people should become advocates 16 for nullification of our unjust laws. 17 And I appreciate the opportunity to 18 speak. Thank you. 19 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Mike 20 Mastrogiovanni. Steve, you're on deck. 21 MIKE MASTROGIOVANNI: Unfortunately 22 Scott took most of my points, but on one 23 of the things that we are a 24 representative form of government. And 25 in New York State to pass the SAFE Gun 47 1 Mastrogiovanni 2 Act which bypassed everybody in this 3 room, no comment, nothing. What 4 happened to we the people? 5 Brought up by the sheriff's tonight 6 about the amount of people they asked 7 them a question about the assault 8 weapons being used in a crime. .007 9 percent of the crimes ever committed 10 with an assault weapon. But yet we 11 blame an object for murder, we blame an 12 object for the killing of children, we 13 keep blaming the object. We never ever 14 look at the problem. We call it gun 15 violence. It's violence. It doesn't 16 matter if I punch somebody in violence 17 or if I shoot somebody, it's violence. 18 But it's a buzz word to get everybody 19 fired up and say this is gun violence 20 we've got to do something about it. 21 Every one of our zones except one is 22 a gun free zone. What makes a gun free 23 zone? You can't have any guns there. 24 Why are you going to do your crimes? 25 You go to a gun free zone. Every one of 48 1 Mastrogiovanni 2 these crimes, except one again, the 3 people that committed these crimes were 4 on heavy hard psychotic drugs. What did 5 we do about that? We want to change the 6 mental health system. We want to pierce 7 your confidentiality with the patient/ 8 client privilege. 9 If you feel bad one day because 10 you're dog died, and a month later you 11 can't get over it, you're afraid to go 12 to the doctor. He may say, oh you can't 13 have guns anymore, you can't enjoy 14 shooting trap, skeet, target. You can't 15 do any of that anymore. 16 So this law has only made one 17 person, one group of people safe, that 18 is the criminals. The criminals are 19 much safer today than when this gun law 20 was enacted and they're going to be much 21 more safe because less people be able to 22 defend themselves. The state police 23 told me in a conversation with Steve 24 Hogan's office, the state police and the 25 police need to have more than 7 rounds 49 1 Mastrogiovanni 2 in their magazines. And I asked, why? 3 Because, well, it's their job to defend 4 and protect. I said, so let me get this 5 right, they're outgunned on the street 6 when they break through my door I'm less 7 gunned than they are, but they're more 8 important people. These people, there 9 is nothing wrong with a law abiding 10 citizen, lot of you that are in here. 11 If you like guns or don't like guns, 12 everything that's done can happen to you 13 overnight. This is why it's a bad law. 14 Ammunition background checks. Told 15 it's going to stop the criminals from 16 getting guns or ammunition. If they 17 steal the guns aren't they going to 18 steal the ammunition? Is that going to 19 stop it? Like I said, 34 counties have 20 already passed this resolution. They 21 have done it because their people and 22 their sheriff's have stood behind them. 23 The law abiding aren't the problem. 24 We're being harnessed, we're being 25 chipped away at, we're being beat. It's 50 1 Wowelko 2 got to stop. We have to stand up and 3 fight for liberty, justice for all. 4 Thank you. 5 STEPHEN WOWELKO: Steve Wowelko from 6 Onondaga County. Dear members of the 7 Onondaga County Legislature, fellow 8 residents of Onondaga County. Today I'm 9 here to address you as a parent, a child 10 of immigrant parents, a sportsman and a 11 resident of Onondaga County. First and 12 foremost I'm concerned about the safety 13 of my family, as I'm sure you and the 14 rest of the residents in this county 15 are, especially those in the city of 16 Syracuse where I grew up. 17 The New York State SAFE Act contains 18 some very important pieces of 19 legislation, namely, Kendra's Law. 20 Legislation that provides for court 21 ordered assisted outpatient treatment 22 for certain people with mental illness 23 who view their treatment history and 24 present circumstances are unlikely to 25 survive safely in the community without 51 1 Wowelko 2 the supervision. 3 Then we have Mark's Law, to make the 4 killing of emergency first responders 5 first degree murder punishable by the 6 stiffest penalty allowed by law, life 7 without parole. 8 With lawsuits pending against the 9 state and the possibility of injunction 10 against the whole SAFE Act, these 11 important provisions of the law can be 12 in jeopardy of not being enacted for 13 years. A full repeal of the act and 14 reintroduction of these important 15 portions of the law, which will stand 16 alone, are the only way to guarantee 17 their enactment and a degree of safety 18 for us. 19 My parents came to this country with 20 just a suitcase full a clothes, and more 21 importantly a hope of living in freedom. 22 They escaped living in a dictatorship 23 and communism, they sought democracy, a 24 government of the people and by the 25 people, one that listened to its 52 1 Wowelko 2 citizens and acted in their best 3 interests. The way that this New York 4 SAFE Act was passed in the middle of the 5 night, in secrecy, with no time to ask 6 the people their input was not an 7 example of the democracy my parents 8 yearned for when they came to this 9 country. 10 I am also here today representing 11 the Onondaga County Federation of 12 Sportsmen's Clubs. The New York SAFE 13 Act has a definite impact on sportsmen. 14 With the reclassification of an assault 15 weapon, common hunting rifles used by 16 sportsmen are now considered an assault 17 weapon. Even the gun I used to hunt 18 squirrels with can now be classified as 19 an assault weapon. 20 A thumbhole in the stock of a rifle 21 to help a person with disabilities to 22 stabilize a gun when hunting is now 23 considered an assault weapon. This 24 reclassification of a firearm for just 25 its cosmetic features does not improve 53 1 Wowelko 2 the safety for New York. Our County 3 Federation has passed a resolution 4 asking for the full repeal of the law. 5 I have supplied a copy of it to each of 6 you. 7 As a resident of Onondaga County I 8 am upset with this new legislation for 9 the unfunded mandates it will impose on 10 our county taxpayers. At a time when we 11 should be looking at ways to decrease 12 crime, we do not need another level of 13 bureaucracy that I feel will not 14 accomplish the goal, the goal that it 15 was set out to do. 16 I urge you to vote for a resolution 17 for the full repeal of the New York SAFE 18 Act and encourage our state Legislature 19 in Albany to work toward legislation 20 that will truly have a positive impact 21 on the safety of the residents of New 22 York, Onondaga County and the city of 23 Syracuse. Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: John Butler, 25 you're on deck. 54 1 Keeley 2 KAY KEELEY: Hi, Bonnie Ferguson 3 giving me time tonight, I'm Kay Keeley 4 for the public comment. First of all 5 this law was passed under the guise of 6 protecting our children. I have a three 7 year old daughter at home tonight, and I 8 talked to Sheriff Walsh a few weeks 9 about whether or not this law protected 10 her. I asked him is my daughter safer 11 today because of this law than she was 12 two weeks ago before it was passed? He 13 looked me right in the eye and said 14 absolutely not. 15 This law is, according to our clerks 16 and according to the sheriff's 17 association as well, is pretty hard to 18 enforce. And it's hard to fund as well. 19 We don't really have the money for it. 20 So I wonder why we should support this 21 law since, since it's practically 22 unenforceable. And since according to 23 our own sheriff it does nothing to 24 protect our children. 25 The sheriff did comment to me about 55 1 Butler 2 how the gun control law doesn't really 3 do anything to protect my daughter 4 sitting at home tonight as borne out by 5 some members that I looked up, according 6 to -- according to the Family Bureau of 7 Criminology, actually after they passed 8 that sweeping gun law in Australia, 9 violent crime went up by over 42 percent. 10 I don't think we should support a law 11 that bans guns and could cause violent 12 crime to go up. 13 You know, this is borne off where 14 violent crime there has risen as well. 15 I would strongly urge this body to 16 consider passing a resolution to fully 17 repeal this law. Thank you. 18 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: John Butler, 19 Skaneateles, New York. Russell Kiggins, 20 you're on deck. 21 JOHN BUTLER: My name is John G. 22 Butler, I live at 3826 State Street Road, 23 Skaneateles, New York. I've been there 24 since 1971. I was a 30 year veteran of 25 the Onondaga County Sheriff's Department 56 1 Butler 2 Custody Division. I came here to 3 address you on having the -- I'll read 4 from this piece of paper -- records 5 exemption. And quite frankly it's not 6 being addressed here tonight. However, 7 historically I've been threatened over a 8 dozen times, documented, sent to the 9 District Attorney's office in my 30 10 years in the sheriff's department. The 11 folks said that they would either kill 12 me or maim me, rape and kill my family. 13 And the only response I would give them 14 is, pack a lunch and make it light. 15 However, it could very well happen, 16 it hasn't happened yet, thank God. But 17 to restrict me from possessing a firearm 18 that I work with for 30 years, it's 19 unconscionable, and doesn't allow me to 20 protect my family. So with that I would 21 vote that you would repeal that law. 22 And I thank you very much for the short 23 time that I have here. 24 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Russell Kiggins. 25 Are you here Russell? Go to the next 57 1 Neupert 2 one then, Rachel Neupert, North 3 Syracuse. Walter Dixon is on deck. 4 RACHEL NEUPERT: I stand before you 5 today to implore you to adopt the 6 resolution for the repeal of the New 7 York State SAFE Act in Onondaga County. 8 To stand in unity against an unjust and 9 unconstitutional law against its own 10 constituents. Just as many of the other 11 counties and states are doing. The list 12 is growing day by day and will continue 13 to do so as well as a growing number of 14 lawsuits continuing to be filed. 15 We are all deeply saddened by the 16 Sandy Hook massacre, but Governor Cuomo 17 however, took it upon himself to 18 propagate a message of necessity clearly 19 based on emotion. I read the 78 page 20 bill in its entirety, whereas the 21 majority of our Senate leaders they had 22 not before voting and passing on this 23 bill. Through false Message of 24 Necessity the people were not given the 25 right to a standard three day cooling 58 1 Neupert 2 off period to supply their own comments 3 and concerns, and we have many. 4 Governor Cuomo, the Senate and all 5 state and public employees are smart to 6 uphold their oath of office to protect 7 our Constitutional rights. They let us 8 down. Our Second Amendment adopted 9 December 15, 1791 clearly states, a well 10 regulated malitia being necessary for 11 security of the free state, the right of 12 the people to keep and bear arms shall 13 not be infringed. 14 The SAFE Act has a direct impact on 15 our law abiding citizens, our police, 16 our law enforcement, our veterans. The 17 very people already obeying one of the 18 strictest gun laws in the country are 19 law abiding, and are being turned into 20 criminals. Although I would hope and 21 pray I would never have to use my 22 firearm against someone who is trying to 23 inflict harm on myself or my children, 24 it is my Constitutional right to defend 25 my family to preserve their life. And 59 1 Neupert 2 yes, I may need more than 7 bullets to 3 do so. 4 But let me ask you, will this law 5 help to reduce the violent crime rate in 6 the city of Syracuse? I'm a health care 7 professional, I see this every day. And 8 I don't think so. Will the criminals 9 give up their weapons or care about 10 assault bans? Or would they adhere to a 11 maximum 7 round rule? No. They don't 12 register them anyway. 13 We have gun control, enforce the 14 laws that are on the books, we do not 15 need more gun control, we do need crime 16 control. We do need more help for the 17 mentally unstable I agree, but we cannot 18 do that if we are shutting down our 19 group homes and facilities for the 20 mentally ill and releasing them upon the 21 population and into our city streets. 22 This is an Unsafe Act giving criminals 23 the upper hand and the rest of us 24 defenseless against them. 25 You need not look any farther than 60 1 Dixon 2 Chicago to see the bill of disarmament, 3 which Governor Cuomo admitted proposing 4 confiscation, leads to higher crime rate. 5 In closing, I ask you again, please 6 repeal. The good citizens are many and 7 should not be punished by the few that 8 have all obtained weapons illegally. We 9 have done nothing wrong, we are the law 10 abiding citizens, we are the people and 11 we will be heard. We will not weaken 12 our resolve, it is strong, and we will 13 not forget come election day when it is 14 time to vote for those who stand up for 15 the Constitution. Thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Thank you Rachel. 17 Walter Dixon, followed by George Busco, 18 junior. 19 WALTER DIXON: My name is Walt 20 Dixon. Most of the good stuff has 21 really been said, very prepared 22 speakers, very very well, most of the 23 things I thought of. I think I was just 24 like anyone else in this room that's a 25 law abiding gun owner, I was just 61 1 Dixon 2 appalled, and it's taken up the majority 3 of my waking hours ever since this bill 4 was passed, either on the Internet or 5 writing letters or making phone calls or 6 attending meetings. And it seemed to me 7 in a state that has taken two, three or 8 four years I guess it's been said, to 9 take comments from its residents on 10 hydrofracking to engage in midnight 11 politics, you know, passing this bill, 12 passing this law, when our state 13 constitution says that we're supposed to 14 wait or the Legislators are supposed to 15 have three days to have this bill on 16 their desk before they vote on it, seems 17 to be just appalling. 18 And I attended two town hall 19 meetings where my Assemblyman Al Stirpe 20 was graciously -- I was hoping for 21 applause but -- Al Stirpe was graciously 22 attending down in Tully and down in 23 Fabius. When he was pushed to say well 24 why was this passed so quickly, why was 25 it passed so fast without any input from 62 1 Dixon 2 constituents? And he kind of hung his 3 head and said, well, you know, it was 4 kind of felt in the legislative chambers 5 that if it was given too much time it 6 wouldn't pass. Plain and simple. 7 The two things that dawned on me, 8 and these are just, you know, a dad and 9 a granddad at this point, I asked the 10 Assemblyman at that meeting about the 11 web supervision, one of the provisions 12 of the SAFE Act. And I think the whole 13 thing is ill thought. And I guess it's 14 admirable that we would pass a law that 15 would imprison for life someone who 16 kills a first responder or a policeman. 17 But I said to him, why, as admirable as 18 that is, why is their life any more 19 important than my wife, my daughter or 20 my granddaughter? 21 If we want to pass a well thought 22 out law why not imprison anyone who 23 kills another human being for life. 24 Then I said to the Assemblyman, Sunday 25 February 3rd in the Post Standard, 63 1 Dixon 2 here's an example of the Albany District 3 Attorney accepting a plea for First 4 Degree Manslaughter and a plea bargain 5 on a gentleman who killed another 6 gentleman in a drug deal gone bad, and 7 they're putting him away for 15 years, 8 and he'll be out. What sense does that 9 make? 10 And the last thing I just want to 11 say is this, and again this is kind of 12 from the heart. I listened to, I think 13 his name is Tully school supervisor 14 Craig Pritz, he said something to the 15 Assemblyman at that meeting, that they 16 apparently, the school supervisors had 17 reviewed some studies in schools where 18 there was a killer or shooter that came 19 in and tried to kill kids. And he said 20 he was stunned to learn that an 21 overwhelmingly, most every case when 22 there was an armed resource officer 23 there to return fire, the killer shot 24 themselves and ended the spree. And he 25 said, but there is no money for resource 64 1 Busco 2 officers in the state in this tight 3 budget. And yet here Governor Cuomo is 4 asking for $35.9 million to fund this 5 illegitimate SAFE Act. I hope you would 6 oppose this act. 7 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: David Simmons 8 you're on deck. 9 GEORGE BUSCO, JR.: My name is 10 George Busco, junior, I live in Tully, 11 New York. When I entered the military I 12 swore to uphold the Constitution of the 13 United States. As this government's 14 office holders the Amendment, the Second 15 Amendment gives the right of the people 16 to keep and bear arms and shall not be 17 infringed. 18 The government has gotten away with 19 limiting this right, but it doesn't make 20 it legal. I have heard the district 21 attorney say it was about a single shot 22 musket. Well at the time that was a 23 state-of-the-art military firearm. Our 24 forefather's give us the ability to 25 overthrow an out of control government 65 1 Simmons 2 as they did with England. Nowhere in 3 the Constitution is hunting mentioned. 4 Our Governor allowed a grandmother 5 killer to shoot firemen. And a crazy 6 kid shoots his way into a school. Both 7 use guns illegally acquired. For this 8 you want to remove more freedom from 9 legal gun owners. Most mass shootings 10 are in gun free zones. Do away with 11 this law. History shows over and over 12 again more legal gun people in an area 13 there is less crime. Thank you. 14 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: David, you're up. 15 Allen Oakes, your next. 16 DAVID SIMMONS: My name is David 17 Simmons, I'm the president of the 18 Baldwinsville Rod and Gun Club and I'm 19 board of director's member of the 20 Onondaga County Federation Sportsmen 21 Club. I want to thank you for the 22 opportunity to speak tonight. 23 Unfortunately everybody has covered most 24 of my points already. 25 So I guess I have two questions that 66 1 Simmons 2 the Onondaga County Legislature should 3 consider while they're thinking about 4 this resolution. If gun control laws 5 work shouldn't Chicago be the safest 6 place in the world? So instead of being 7 the safest place in the world, in the 8 first six months of 2012 Chicago 9 experienced 250 murders. Chicago is a 10 city one-third the size of New York City 11 and New York City only experienced 193 12 murders in the first six months of 2012. 13 And my other point is this. COPAS, 14 (phonetic) which the Governor abandoned 15 last year because over the course of 16 more than 10 years it cost the taxpayers 17 of this state more than $40 million 18 never resulted in a single convicted 19 criminal. The New York SAFE Act is 20 reported to cost $36 million just to 21 enact this year. For that same price of 22 $36 million we could keep 720 violent 23 criminals in jail for one more year. 24 Thank you. 25 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: George Raterman, 67 1 Oakes 2 you're on deck. 3 ALLEN OAKES: Good evening, my name 4 is Allen Oakes, I'm a disabled Vietnam 5 veteran, silver star winner, two purple 6 hearts. (Applause). I didn't do that 7 get to rise out of anybody. I really 8 didn't. 9 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's why we 10 did it. 11 ALLEN OAKES: On March 1st there was 12 an organization called We The People. 13 And We The People and several of us New 14 Yorkers, and exactly 1,256 I believe, 15 filed suit in the State of New York to 16 repeal the New York SAFE Gun Act. On 17 March 11th there was a hearing in Albany 18 to determine whether it's going to be 19 law or not law. 20 The Governor and Mr. Silver and I 21 think the majority leader and minority 22 leader have all been served as to why 23 they should keep this in the law rather 24 than repeal. So I urge all of you to 25 read it. Again, I'm not here to bump up 68 1 Raterman 2 We The People, but it's on their site if 3 one wants the read the complaint. And 4 what we're trying to do about it. Most 5 everything has been talked about here is 6 what I also had to say, so I'm glad 7 there are so many people of the same 8 mind. The only last thing I want to say 9 is let common sense prevail instead of 10 emotion, that's the only way one lives. 11 Thank you. 12 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Scott Chatfield, 13 you're on deck. 14 GEORGE RATERMAN: Good evening. 15 Allen was right, most everything has 16 been already touched on. He kind of 17 stole our thunder. But anyway we're all 18 against this so called law, and which 19 was illegally put in place. My name is 20 George Raterman, I live in Kirkville, 21 New York, have lived there for 30 years 22 and before that we were residents of 23 East Syracuse and then Syracuse itself. 24 I came to this country in 1950. I 25 was a displaced person, having lived in 69 1 Raterman 2 Germany for ten years after the war. I 3 was born in Latvia, one of the Balkan 4 countries. Anyway, that's my background. 5 I went to school here in Syracuse, 6 attended high school, North High School, 7 now it's torn down, not where it used to 8 be, on the windy hill. And I also 9 served in the 174th Fighter Wing. For 10 six years went to France, but that's 11 another story. 12 I just wanted to ask you not to 13 forget why our Founding Fathers put that 14 Second Amendment in place. There is not 15 one country in the world that has a 16 Second Amendment except the United 17 States. Maybe Switzerland, I'm not sure 18 whether they have, because they keep 19 their weapons at home. They're part of 20 the army, and they each have their 21 weapon for the time that it's needed in 22 emergency. 23 And you know, this is what I want 24 you to remember, the citizens of this 25 great country, that this Second Amendment 70 1 Chatfield 2 is for us to keep tyrants out of control 3 in the White House. And I feel that 4 every one of these laws, whether it's on 5 a county level, a state level or a 6 federal level, has a purpose of trying 7 to take away our representative republic. 8 You might disagree with me, but I think 9 it's a step by step intentional program 10 by the progressives to do that. 11 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Lee Schapley, 12 your next. 13 SCOTT CHATFIELD: Good evening 14 Mr. Chairman, Chairman Knapp, Chairman 15 Holmquist, members of the Legislature. 16 My name is Scott Chatfield, I'm here 17 speaking this evening not only on my own 18 behalf but on behalf of an organization 19 known as Central New York Conservatives, 20 Inc. We're a not-for-profit organization 21 dedicated to spreading the word about 22 the Founding Fathers principles and 23 moral values. And they have authorized 24 me to make some remarks this evening. 25 First I want to start by saying many 71 1 Chatfield 2 of the words you hear me say this 3 evening will sound familiar to you. But 4 they bear close scrutiny and frequent 5 repetition and somber reflection. 6 Because they really are the essence of 7 what is the United States of America. 8 So as to make certain I say them right I 9 will read. 10 Governments are instituted among 11 men, deriving their just powers from the 12 consent of the governed. That whenever 13 any form of government becomes 14 destructive of these ends, it is the 15 right of the people to alter or abolish 16 it, and to institute new government 17 laying its foundations on such 18 principles and organizing its powers in 19 such form, as to them shall seem most 20 likely to effect their safety and 21 happiness. 22 Now, this principle so elegantly 23 stated in the Declaration of 24 Independence is the bedrock upon which 25 this Republic stands. And it, in turn, 72 1 Chatfield 2 is dependent upon the ability of the 3 governed to alter or abolish any 4 government that becomes destruction of 5 those ends. 6 At the same time that the Founding 7 Fathers established this principle, this 8 fundamental and novel idea I might add, 9 of the new relationship between the 10 people and their government, they also 11 recognized that for this relationship to 12 endure the people must have the means to 13 enforce their collective will when and 14 if it ever becomes necessary. 15 And I quote. "Prudence indeed will 16 dictate that governments long 17 established should not be changed for 18 light or transient causes; and 19 accordingly all experience hath shown 20 that mankind are more disposed to suffer 21 that which is sufferable, than to right 22 themselves by abolishing the forms to 23 which they are accustomed. But when a 24 long train of abuses and usurpations, 25 pursuing invariably the same object 73 1 Chatfield 2 evinces a design to reduce them under 3 absolute despotism, it is their right, 4 it is their duty, to throw off such 5 government, and to provide new guards 6 for the future security." 7 To ensure that the people would 8 always have those means to throw off 9 such government, the Second Amendment 10 was written in absolute terms, with no 11 room for compromise or equivocation. 12 And I quote, "A well regulated 13 malitia, being necessary to the security 14 of a free state, the right of the people 15 to keep and bear arms, shall not be 16 infringed." 17 All, all of the rights and liberties 18 that we enjoy, as enumerated in the Bill 19 of Rights, are ultimately dependent upon 20 the right of the people to keep and bear 21 arms. This is so because it is the only 22 way when the people collectively have 23 the means to enforce their will that 24 tyrannical powers are kept in check. 25 Each of you, along with many others 74 1 Schapley 2 in this room, have sworn an oath to 3 support and defend the principles I've 4 just repeated. That oath and your 5 obligation as representatives of the 6 people obligate you to join with your 7 fellow representatives to oppose this 8 unconstitutional law and its blatant 9 usurpation of the people's right to 10 remain the ultimate guardian of their 11 own liberty. Thank you. 12 LEE SCHAPLEY: My name is Lee 13 Schapley. Believe me when I say it's 14 hard to beat a lot of the things you 15 heard tonight. I don't know a whole lot 16 about politics but I do know a whole lot 17 about guns. I served five years in the 18 Marine Corps infantry, and I've been an 19 NRA instructor for one year. 20 But one thing I really know and I 21 really love is history. Back in 1776 a 22 smart, a lot smarter than I, wrote this 23 paper called the Crisis. He was talking 24 about the Revolution. But I believe we 25 ourselves, we have a crisis now. And I 75 1 Gosson 2 would like to cite some of what he had 3 to say. 4 "These are the times that try men's 5 souls for the summer soldier and the 6 sunshine patriot will in this crisis 7 shrink from the service with their 8 country. But he stands there now 9 deserves the love and praise of men and 10 women. Tyranny, like hell, is not 11 easily conquered, but we have the 12 consolation with us, that the harder the 13 conflict the more glorious the triumph." 14 My question for you is, are you 15 sunshine patriots? Sorry, nervous, like 16 I say. Thank you. 17 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Michael Gosson, 18 followed by Gary Schoonmaker. 19 MICHAEL GOSSON: Thank you ladies 20 and gentlemen, my name is Michael Gosson 21 of Syracuse, New York. Thank you for 22 allowing me to address this committee, 23 appreciate it very much. According to 24 New York State Governor Cuomo, this law 25 has become one of the most restrictive 76 1 Gosson 2 gun wide gun control laws in the United 3 States. And unlike the past this time 4 he's really telling the truth. 5 My issue really address the 6 ammunition aspect. As a competitive 7 clay target shooter, skeet namely, for 8 on and off for the last 14 years, in my 9 years I typically would shoot anywhere 10 from as little as 2,000 to 14,000 rounds 11 per year. And you would think anyone 12 that shoots that much would be better 13 than I am. 14 I speak for myself and approximately 15 15,000 other competitive shooters in New 16 York State and across the country. From 17 a competitive aspect often times I am 18 with the shooters ranging from as little 19 15 to 350 participants at skeet shoot. 20 Any participant would purchase anywhere 21 from a hundred to as many as 500 rounds 22 of ammunition to shoot over a three day 23 period. It's not uncommon for the gun 24 club hosting the skeet shoot to sell for 25 between 25,000 to 40,000 rounds of 77 1 Gosson 2 ammunition over a three day period. 3 This is not the exception, it often is 4 the rule. 5 According to the new law all dealers 6 that deal in ammunition must be 7 registered with the state police, and 8 each sale will require both a state 9 background check in transmission of the 10 record to the state police of New York. 11 Even if a gun club could comply with 12 this new law that the New York State 13 requires, can you just imagine for a 14 moment one person in line selling 15 ammunition to 350 shooters how long that 16 would take. The staff, the monetary 17 amount that a club would absorb would be 18 astronomical. People would no longer 19 shoot. 20 And imagine someone from out of 21 state, because it's very common that out 22 of state shooters would come to New York 23 State, New York State has a very large 24 shoot of its own shoot, we'll draw 25 people from all over New England. So 78 1 Schoonmaker 2 how is someone from the state of 3 Massachusetts going to handle buying 4 ammunition at a skeet shoot when they 5 are not required by their law to 6 purchase ammunition? In light of the 7 new ammunition law, puts undue burden 8 and hardship on small to medium to large 9 size gun clubs. And I ask for 10 reconsideration of this law commencing 11 April 1 or April 15, 2013. Thank you. 12 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Bill Adams, 13 you're up next. 14 GARY SCHOONMAKER: Hi, my name is 15 Gary Schoonmaker, I've been living in 16 this county for 60 years. And I've 17 always tried to be a law abiding citizen 18 and that's what I intend to be, but with 19 the advent of this law it certainly is 20 possible that come this time next year I 21 won't be. 22 I live in Marcellus, and I have 23 heard a lot of the things that people 24 said, and I really appreciate it, and I 25 won't double up on the things other 79 1 Schoonmaker 2 people have said. Suffice it to say I 3 would like to see this gun law repealed. 4 I would also like to see some of the 5 previous provisions of the laws passed 6 previously done away with as well. 7 And as much as I dislike this 8 Governor I have to thank him for 9 bringing all these people together. The 10 one issue I would like to address is 11 school safety. When we came in tonight 12 there was a line out the door for 13 security screening. We have armed 14 security in the room. I venture to say 15 that some of the Legislators may be 16 carrying as well. Because they value 17 their security. I've been to the 18 Justice Center, same thing. You try to 19 get in there with a pocket knife and you 20 have to check it and get it back on the 21 way out. You have to empty your 22 pockets, you have to go through a 23 magnetometer, you have armed guards. 24 Trying to get in the federal building 25 with a cell phone, you can't do it. 80 1 Schoonmaker 2 Why do elected officials think their 3 security is so much more important than 4 our children's security? I think the 5 ideas that have been promoted about 6 bringing armed security guards into the 7 schools are probably a good idea. But 8 one concern I have is if that's the only 9 person in the school that's armed, that 10 person is a target for anybody that 11 wants to go into that school. I think 12 it's important and incumbent upon this 13 country to provide protection for our 14 children that allows legitimate -- 15 people who are rational and who have 16 been trained to be able to carry the 17 features as administrators in the 18 schools. 19 If that was allowed, if schools were 20 not gun free zones, even if nobody 21 carries in the school, anybody wouldn't 22 go in because they wouldn't know. Right 23 now we're advertising that these are gun 24 free zones. That makes no sense. And 25 the provisions in the New York SAFE law 81 1 Schoonmaker 2 which say, well we're going to give the 3 schools more money for security and 4 magnetometers and stuff like that. I 5 know people that work in city schools. 6 And periodically even in an elementary 7 building they're bringing in a 8 magnetometer setting it up at the front 9 door and the kids have to go through it. 10 Do you know what happens? The kids 11 who carry whatever, contraband, get a 12 phone call or a text from their friends 13 who's already gone through security and 14 they just don't show up at school that 15 day. That doesn't help us. We need to 16 have the security in the schools. I 17 think at that point I'm going to let 18 somebody else talk, hopefully somebody 19 has something else new to say. 20 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Rick Nash, you're 21 up next after Bill Adams. 22 BILL ADAMS: My name is Bill Adams, 23 I'm from East Syracuse, New York, I'm a 24 veteran, and you'll have to pardon me, 25 I'm not used to speak to so many people 82 1 Adams 2 like this but I'll try. I've got a 3 picture here of an object, some of you 4 might know what it is, some people might 5 not know what it is. It's a 10 round 6 magazine for a 10/22 rifle. 7 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. 8 BILL ADAMS: I figured you would. I 9 own one, my son back there owns one, my 10 son-in-law owns one and I'm sure a lot 11 of people out there own one. As of 12 January I'm a criminal. The only law 13 I've ever broken in my whole life is a 14 speeding ticket or a parking ticket. 15 And I'll tell you what, I'm upset that 16 I'm going to be a criminal. And 17 everybody else should be upset that 18 they're going to be a criminal. 19 I've got one question for everybody 20 in this room. How much is your freedom 21 worth? Is it worth a free cell phone, 22 free contraceptives, whatever? Ask your 23 question, just ask yourself that 24 question and you'll repeal or you'll get 25 this law repealed. Just on the way they 83 1 Nash 2 did it, as everybody else has said, in 3 the dark of night. How many honest 4 people do you know that do things in the 5 dark of the night? Thank you. 6 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Luke Germain, 7 you're next. 8 RICK NASH: My name is Rick Nash, 9 I'm from Baldwinsville and I would like 10 to thank the Legislators, it's been a 11 privilege to watch you in action. Kind 12 of thought you weren't -- I didn't know 13 what to expect. You seem to be good so 14 I would like to give them a hand. And 15 what I'd like to say, we can go back to 16 the times when mentioned but the time of 17 the Civil War what the Second Amendment 18 means to me is that everybody in here 19 who was opposed to slavery would raise 20 that hand, that would be me. 21 Now everybody can go home and join 22 up with the regular army to fight with 23 the men in the north to fight against 24 the south, raise your hand. Who has a 25 gun to do that? If we don't have guns 84 1 Nash 2 in our society we cannot keep things 3 like that from happening. It's just, it 4 is the way that the gentleman said to 5 keep our government into check and to 6 make sure that people are treated 7 fairly. I'm not a Democrat, I'm not a 8 Republican, I'm not a Libertarian, I'm a 9 Humanitarian. I believe that everybody 10 has the right to life, liberty and the 11 pursuit of happiness in our society. 12 Since I've been a child, in 1958 13 when I was born I went to school I had 14 to go underneath the desk or down into a 15 basement because my government told me 16 that more is better. The Russians are 17 coming, the Koreans are coming, the 18 Chinese are coming, the Commies are 19 coming, somebody is coming. The Axis of 20 Evil is coming. And they have armed 21 themselves to the teeth. And that is 22 their logic to keep us safe. So why do 23 we as individual citizens not have the 24 same logic passed down to us? Shouldn't 25 we be able to keep ourself safe by 85 1 Nash 2 arming ourselves in case there is a 3 calamity? 4 We're uncertain of our future. We 5 have no idea what's going to happen from 6 one minute to the next. We catch 7 Katrina, we watched some of the law 8 enforcement not be able to respond to 9 people. People actually had to defend 10 themselves. And this is from people who 11 don't own guns. They don't understand. 12 We have a chasm in our society. There 13 is people and I'm sure most of the 14 Legislators you may have your lawns 15 mowed. I have to mow my lawn probably 16 as most of the people in the back. So 17 some people need to use a lawnmower, 18 some people don't. We have more and 19 more people the lawnmower has gone to 20 the way of like a gun in terms of 21 economics. Like if you don't need it 22 and you rely on other people to protect 23 you, it's okay, and that's a good thing. 24 We would like to have that. I don't 25 want to have to worry that I need to be 86 1 Nash 2 able to have to protect myself. 3 But it is an option just in case. 4 And one of the other things is the 5 sheriff captain said about people now 6 are buying guns, more and more guns. 7 Gun owners right now, as most of the 8 responsible gun owners and gun clubs 9 really should address there. Because 10 there is a chasm in our society don't 11 have guns, now they're going out and 12 buying them, there will be a lot more 13 accidents if people just go out and 14 buying guns. 15 But I encourage people to buy guns, 16 everybody should know how to use one, it 17 makes our society a polite society. Our 18 protectors and police and our military 19 are our future. And they come from our 20 gun culture. That's where we get our 21 protection from. Most of the people who 22 join up in the Army or Marines or join 23 the sheriff's department, they come from 24 people, citizens who have guns are 25 comfortable with guns, they've been 87 1 LeBlanq 2 around guns all their lives. 3 I think what this law has done is 4 make everybody who owns a firearm a 5 criminal, and ultimately as you said is 6 going to cost us a lot more money. So 7 what are we go going to do? Are we 8 going to let more violent criminals out 9 like the guy in Webster, so we can put 10 more people who have committed no crime 11 into jail when our jails are over- 12 crowded as it is. 13 People might say what they want 14 about us, but we are a very well based 15 people for having over 310 million guns 16 in our society. Please repeal this law. 17 I do believe it is totally 18 unconstitutional. Thank you. 19 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Adrienne LeBlanq. 20 Luke, you're up. 21 LUKE GERMAIN: Did not expect to 22 speak tonight, there's been so much 23 information shared tonight, it's been so 24 wonderful with the sheriff, the arms 25 trainer and everyone else just been 88 1 Germain 2 great. But I just wanted to go into, 3 you know, this little bit of the law 4 here. Penalty. Penalty for possession 5 of high capacity magazine, more than 7 6 rounds in New York State will go into 7 effect and will be a class D violent 8 felony. 9 So I was just going to read a quick 10 list of lesser crimes of Class E 11 felonies: 120.70, luring of a child. 12 125.10, criminal negligent homicide. 13 130.25, rape third degree. 130.40, 14 criminal sexual act of the third degree. 15 130.53, persistent sexual abuse. 16 130.65(A) aggravated sexual abuse fourth 17 degree. 130.85 female genital mutilation. 18 135.10, unlawful imprisonment first 19 degree. 150.05 fourth degree arson. 20 220.28 the use of a child to commit a 21 controlled substance offense. 240.06, 22 riot first degree. 240.15, criminal 23 anarchy. 240.61 placing a false bomb or 24 hazardous substance second degree felony, 25 Class E felony. 250.45 unlawful 89 1 LeBlanq 2 surveillance second degree. Hidden 3 cameras for sexual gratification. 4 255.25, incest third degree. 263.11 5 possession of obscene sexual performance 6 by a child. 7 So now, the magazines now are a lot 8 worse to have than any one of those 9 crimes which is completely ridiculous. 10 This needs to be repealed immediately. 11 Thank you. 12 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Fred Neff, you're 13 on deck. 14 ADRIENNE LeBLANQ: I live just south 15 of Syracuse's border into Dewitt. In 16 case there is anybody here, although I'm 17 sure there isn't, this is what you call 18 a pistol permit. Two different people 19 asked me what it was, they didn't know. 20 Or they wanted to see one that showed my 21 age. Whatever it is. 22 Anyway, I'm up here with a little 23 bit of a lighter message than some of 24 the others because this affects me 25 personally. If I take back my own 90 1 LeBlanq 2 personal property that I purchased that 3 I sent to my son when I was having some 4 strangers remodel the bathroom in my 5 house and whatever, I didn't want my 6 guns around, so I sent them to my one 7 and only child in the state of South 8 Carolina, through a reputable gun 9 dealer. And he sent them on to a 10 reputable gun dealer down there, so my 11 son could pick it up at my expense all 12 of it. 13 If I want any of this back there are 14 two guns here I believe that if I ever 15 use them or if I get them, want to get 16 them back after April 15th it's not just 17 a cost I'll have to pay I'll become a 18 criminal. 19 Now my background so far, before I'm 20 going to become a criminal, in case you 21 want to know, I did something foolish 22 like taught school in the Syracuse 23 public school for 34 years and I taught 24 social studies. But I only taught the 25 social studies to give to class for a 91 1 LeBlanq 2 year. After about three years of that I 3 switched because I didn't feel well with 4 some of the kids fairly slow. So for 31 5 years I taught Special Ed, everything 6 from kindergarten kids that needed 7 Special Ed to seniors in high school up 8 to the age of 19, 20, or however long 9 you can stay in Special Ed. And many of 10 them told me they weren't going to live 11 past 30, but I've seen a couple of them 12 around so I guess they've managed it. 13 And I've been around where there 14 were riots in cafeterias, I've been 15 around where they had a lot of bomb 16 threats. I don't really think I deserve 17 to be a criminal after April 15th 18 because I want to get one of my firearms 19 that I never fired, that I was just 20 keeping in the house in case. I just 21 don't feel that it's the right thing. 22 By the way, I was a classifier of a 23 rifle at the age of 9 by a councilor at 24 camp, who had an accent. He was a, 25 maybe he was one of the displaced 92 1 Neff 2 persons or something from World War II, 3 I believe he was out of one of the 4 concentration camps. And he felt it was 5 a good idea for all of us to learn how 6 to defend ourselves. 7 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Bill Andrews, 8 you're up next. 9 FRED NEFF: Between getting frost 10 bite waiting to get in here and I think 11 I've just lost 20 pounds sitting there 12 in the seat, I guess it's worth it. My 13 name is Fred Neff, I'm from Baldwinsville. 14 I live on East Dead Creek Road, make 15 sure you get that right because there is 16 a West Dead Creek Road. Anybody want to 17 guess what's in between them? Dead 18 Creek. Do you know how often I pull 19 that on the phone? 20 I'm going to a little bit in places 21 where there's been a little discussion 22 so far, but I'm going to dwell on 23 something I didn't hear too much tonight. 24 There is two elements in this pack I 25 want to talk about, one is the Second 93 1 Neff 2 Amendment. Why the concern? After all 3 the SAFE Act does note confiscate our 4 firearms. It only restricts and 5 regulates certain items defined as 6 assault weapons. And the second one I 7 want to talk to is the potential 8 ramifications of the SAFE Act. 9 Let's talk about the Second 10 Amendment first. History is quite clear 11 about those who would control their 12 populace and accomplish that goal. 13 First and foremost the citizens have to 14 be disarmed. That procedure is always 15 the same. Implement ever increasing 16 restrictive requirements for ownership 17 of firearms, then demand registration of 18 those firearms, then demand that certain 19 and then all firearms be turn in. And 20 finally confiscate all firearms. 21 Note that the disarming of the 22 public is done in steps. And if they 23 say, I'm hearing it increasing lately, 24 you can't eat an elephant in one 25 sitting. However, if you eat only one 94 1 Neff 2 piece at a time you'll eventually eat 3 the elephant. Each time that another 4 gun law is passed we are told there is 5 no intent to ban firearms. And yet 6 another piece of the elephant is being 7 eaten. Are we paranoid here? 8 Absolutely not. We just know how the 9 game has been played throughout history. 10 And that is why gun owners consider the 11 Second Amendment to be sacred and why it 12 must be protected at all costs. And 13 that's why we draw the line in the sand 14 here. 15 Let me quote the following from 16 David Cappell, and I think an awful lot 17 of you recognize that name. He's an 18 American author, attorney, political 19 science researcher and contributing 20 editor to several publications and 21 written books on the subject. 22 "The 1774 import ban on firearms and 23 gunpowder, the 1774, '75 confiscation of 24 firearms and gunpowder, and the use of 25 violence to effectuate that confiscation, 95 1 Neff 2 it was those events that changed the 3 situation of political tension into a 4 shooting war. Each of these British 5 abuses provides insight into the scope 6 of the modern Second Amendment." 7 Consider the following pertaining to 8 the subject of the Second Amendment. 9 The Second Amendment was created to 10 protect the first law of nature, the 11 right of self protection. Self 12 protection was considered an inalienable 13 right, a right guaranteed to every 14 citizen individually. Inalienable right 15 is a right given to you by God and which 16 no inferior power has a right to take 17 away. 18 John Dickinson, Constitution signer. 19 "Rights cannot be repealed or restrained 20 by human laws." John Adams, "40 years 21 ago when the resolution of enslaving 22 America was formed in Great Britain, the 23 British Parliament was advised to disarm 24 the people. That was the best and most 25 effective way to enslave them. But that 96 1 Neff 2 they should not do it openly. But to 3 weaken them and let them sink gradually." 4 George Mason, father of the Bill of 5 Rights. "Before a standing army can 6 rule, the people must be disarmed. As 7 they are in almost every kingdom in 8 Europe." 9 Noah Webster. "Numerous references 10 to the malitia as meaning the whole 11 people, state constitutions both 12 colonial and modern, the federal 13 constitution, early federal laws, and 14 especially the declarations of those who 15 framed the Second Amendment all confirm 16 that guarantees of the US Constitution 17 concerning the right to keep and bear 18 arms were always understood to be 19 inclusive of and extended to every able 20 bodied citizen." 21 Now I want to talk about the 22 potential ramification of the SAFE Act. 23 One of our local Assemblyman, I won't 24 identify him, but I heard an awful lot 25 of boos when I was out in the hallway. 97 1 Neff 2 And when I asked, my suspicion was 3 confirmed. Is quoted as saying, that 4 when someone tells him we are on a 5 slippery slope, he concludes that the 6 person has run out of any other 7 arguments. Really? This Legislator had 8 better pay more attention to the 9 situation. The fact of the matter is 10 that the SAFE Act finally poked the bees 11 nest and the bees have been aroused, and 12 they are angry. 13 And if there is any possibility that 14 the SAFE Act was created for political 15 gain? No. I think I speak for all gun 16 owners when I say that we will not be 17 made criminal for political gain. 18 As Machiavelli, we all know 19 Machiavelli, right? As he quoted, "The 20 Swiss are well armed and enjoy great 21 freedom." He also quoted "When you 22 disarm your subjects, however you offend 23 them by showing" -- let me get this 24 right now -- "When you disarm your 25 subjects however, you offend them by 98 1 Neff 2 showing that either from cowardliness or 3 lack of faith you distrust them. And 4 either conclusion will induce them to 5 hate you." 6 I cannot over-emphasize the 7 potential for violence that has arisen 8 because of present attempts to further 9 restrict individual gun rights. The law 10 abiding citizens of New York and indeed 11 the United States, have finally been 12 stirred to action. And those actions 13 should be sending a clear signal that 14 enough is enough. And the signal being 15 sent is to focus on the real causes of 16 gun violence. 17 It's not the law abiding nor the 18 sane populace that's the problem, it's 19 also not gun accidents, accidents occur, 20 and that's the way it is and that's the 21 way it's going to be. I must add here, 22 that gun safety is a top priority for 23 all legitimate gun owners. The true 24 culprit here is evident to all who truly 25 contemplate the state of our society. 99 1 Neff 2 The SAFE Act, the creation, the process 3 and the vote are all totally unacceptable. 4 It should be repealed as soon as 5 possible and a new approach be proposed, 6 one that all parties, Legislators, gun 7 owners and non-gun owners alike can find 8 to be acceptable and will offer 9 effective approaches to solving "gun 10 violence." 11 It would be all criminal violence. 12 I strongly implore the members of 13 Onondaga County Legislature to vote the 14 support of resolution of opposition for 15 the New York SAFE Act and to join the 34 16 County Legislators that have already 17 passed resolutions of opposition, 17 18 County Legislators that are pending, 19 including this one, and the 23 towns, 7 20 law enforcement agencies and 5 other 21 groups who have also passed resolutions 22 of opposition to the New York SAFE Act 23 to date. 24 I have a map here, most of you, I 25 hope a lot of you have seen it, you can 100 1 Neff 2 see it all the time online. The green 3 are those counties that have passed 4 resolutions of opposition. The orange, 5 whatever you want to call it yellow ones 6 are the ones that are pending. Tonight 7 we're pending, I am hoping that after 8 tomorrow we'll be green. I know you 9 can't see it but if you want it I'll be 10 around here. 11 With the exception of three counties 12 Upstate, you know up in the wilderness 13 where most of us live, Tompkins, Albany 14 and Schenectady have not done anything 15 yet. Notice where all the rest of the 16 white ones are. They got a problem. 17 They've got to fix their problem. We 18 can't do it for them. Why are they 19 asking us to sacrifice our rights on 20 stuff that's not worth it? 21 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: If you can wrap 22 it up. 23 FRED NEFF: That's it, thank you for 24 the opportunity. 25 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Bill Andrews, Lon 101 1 Andrews 2 Keeley following Bill. 3 BILL ANDREWS: You're not going to 4 clap me. I see that the anti-gun 5 control community has been well notified 6 and has brought you here for this 7 meeting. I only wish that the 8 notification had been more broad so that 9 we can have a balanced meeting. Because 10 certainly this meeting does not 11 represent even a small minority of the 12 citizens of Onondaga County. 13 Now I have a couple of preliminary 14 remarks to say. People talk about the 15 procedure of enacting the law. The 16 members of the Legislature were there 17 and could have screamed. That's for the 18 courts to decide. I heard some people 19 here talking in terms of armed overthrow 20 of the duly elected government of the 21 United States. That is wrong. You 22 should be ashamed of yourselves. 23 Now we've talked largely in terms of 24 school protection because that's where 25 the latest big massacre was. And I 102 1 Andrews 2 believe that we've had police at times 3 in schools of the city of Syracuse, I 4 believe that that is in general a good 5 idea. But if people who want to commit 6 mass murder don't want to come to 7 schools they can go to theaters, they 8 can go to a whole lot of places. 9 Protecting the schools alone simply 10 isn't going to do the job. 11 Now I'm a gun owner. In 1946 I took 12 out one of those 45,000 pistol permits 13 that are supposedly floating around 14 somewhere. And actually I had one of 15 the original German Luger pistols, I 16 also had a 15 round Belgian pistol. And 17 I got rid of it. Basically because I 18 realized that they, in terms of my self- 19 protection of the home they would be 20 useless. And if you kept it for years, 21 very very few intruders in the United 22 States who have been shot by homeowners. 23 Most of those have been by accidents. 24 The great majority of shooters from 25 pistols in the homes of the United 103 1 Andrews 2 States have been accidental ones or 3 family violence ones, ones related to 4 the family themselves not to intruders. 5 I say I'm a gun owner, I have 6 carried automatic submachine guns, I've 7 carried semiautomatic rifles which are 8 not, semiautomatic rifles were mentioned 9 here in the discussion but they're not 10 really the target of the young 11 legislation now. I've carried pistols, 12 I've shot at people, I've been shot at 13 by both rifles and automatic weapons 14 because I was in the infantry in World 15 War II. 16 At one point there was an organized 17 crime connected fella who didn't like 18 me, who torched me house with a gallon 19 of gasoline at 1:30 in the morning with 20 four of us in the house. And the pistol, 21 I realized then that the pistol by the 22 time I went to the safe place and got it 23 out and all of that, the fire would have 24 been long gone. As a matter of fact I 25 was downstairs when I first discovered 104 1 Andrews 2 that there was a fire. And the man who 3 torched it was all gone. Pistol would 4 have been useless. 5 I've been attacked on the streets. 6 I have been threatened many times on the 7 streets -- not many times but a few 8 times. And a pistol in my home would 9 have been useless. I don't criticize 10 people who do keep firearms in their 11 homes, I still have an old .22 that I 12 inherited. But that's your call. 13 I don't criticize hunters, because 14 that is your right. And years ago 15 before I went in the Army I hunted too. 16 But I still feel that we should take 17 whatever steps we can albeit imperfect 18 ones, to stop the sale of automatic 19 weapons. We had an assault gun ban for 20 a few years, you know, a federal assault 21 gun ban, it did not do anything to our 22 liberties. There is no need for any 23 peaceful law abiding citizen to have an 24 automatic weapon. 25 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Respect the 105 1 Andrews 2 speaker, please. 3 BILL ANDREWS: I'm not saying 4 automatic, I'm not saying so called 5 automatic pistol, which is really 6 semiautomatic. I'm talking about the 7 weapon which will fire many many rounds 8 in a minute. 9 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is illegal in 10 the State of New York. 11 BILL ANDREWS: It's illegal in the 12 State of New York, it should be banned 13 nationally again so that people can't be 14 bringing it into New York. Because that 15 is the real hazard in New York City and 16 other places, people bring them in. 17 Now, for those of you who want 18 protection in home, I would suggest very 19 strongly that you get a good burglar 20 alarm, fire alarm system that is 21 monitored by the police and fire 22 departments. Now that's the best 23 protection. I would suggest a good dog. 24 When we were torched our dog growled, 25 that's why I was downstairs checking out 106 1 Andrews 2 the house. But I didn't go to where I 3 had my pistol locked away, safely locked 4 away. Keep it from the children. I 5 went downstairs myself to check out the 6 house and then discovered the gallon of 7 gasoline on the side porch. 8 Now we don't need automatic weapons 9 in homes, law abiding citizens don't 10 need them. I think that the state law 11 should probably be tweaked to take care 12 of the preventive shooters. 13 Finally, shooting, I can say from my 14 own experience shooting is fun from the 15 days when one of the cooks asked me to 16 come out and go in his place, out to 17 fire a 50 caliber machine gun, and by 18 mistake I shot down the model plane that 19 was circling overhead. The Army didn't 20 like that. So I was doing what I was 21 supposed to do. 22 The question is whether we want to 23 be on the side of the shooter by not 24 doing everything we can to keep guns 25 from being bought by straw buyers, keep 107 1 Andrews 2 guns again from being stolen from houses 3 which have learned that there is a gun 4 there. I remember being warned by the 5 city police not to advertise the fact 6 that I had a gun, because it just made 7 me a target to have it stolen when I was 8 not in the house. Most burglaries, as 9 you know, occur when the house is dark 10 and people are away. That's why we set 11 the burglar alarm when we go to church. 12 I'm in favor of a ban, complete ban on 13 fully automatic weapons. 14 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are 15 already. 16 BILL ANDREWS: I think a great many 17 of the NRA members, majority across the 18 country according to polls support that, 19 an overwhelming majority of people in 20 the country support that. I'm in favor 21 of a full background check. I'm in 22 favor of a limit on magazines. I would 23 cheerfully have given up the Belgian 24 pistol I once had that had a 15 round 25 magazine. Limit it to 10 okay, but we 108 1 Andrews 2 need to, along with the mental health 3 work, along with the security in schools, 4 along with perhaps changing the culture 5 of the country even, we need to do 6 everything we can to restrict the sale 7 of guns. And we needn't, members of the 8 County Legislator I sat here once too, 9 we needn't be going around advertising 10 the fact we're trying to find ways to 11 get around the state law. 12 We needn't be either listening to 13 the people who talk about overthrowing 14 the duly elected government of the 15 country. We should be listening to the 16 families. Families in the city of 17 Syracuse, families in Newtown and 18 families elsewhere, families who are 19 torn apart when they have lost a child 20 or member of the family due to a 21 shooting, which whether or not it could 22 have been avoided. 23 I know that even the people that I 24 shot had families at home, had people 25 who really suffered from what I had 109 1 Keeley 2 done. Let's not be a part of that being 3 done here. 4 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Lon Keeley, 5 followed by David Stevenson. 6 LON KEELEY: My name is Lon Keeley, 7 I live on Seneca Turnpike in the Town of 8 Onondaga. I won't rehash the items that 9 are wrong with this bill that was passed 10 by New York State or the manner in which 11 it was passed. But because of what is 12 in it and the manner in which it was 13 done, I feel that New York State no 14 longer represents me. They've acted to 15 diminish my freedom and my safety and 16 the safety of my family. 17 It seems that the question before us 18 this evening, the question before you, 19 our County Legislators, is will Onondaga 20 County represent me? Will Onondaga 21 County act to preserve my liberties and 22 enhance the safety of my family? Thank 23 you. 24 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: David Stevenson. 25 John Steele, you're on deck. 110 1 Stevenson 2 DAVID STEVENSON: Thank you, it's a 3 pleasure to be among here so many 4 friends. My name is David Stevenson, 5 I'm a life long resident of Onondaga 6 County. I served 25 years with the 7 Onondaga County Sheriff's Department, 8 retired as a captain, and since then 9 I've been in the business of 10 telecommunications for the last 23 11 years. 12 I know a little bit about what's 13 been going on here tonight, I watched it 14 when I was in the street as a police 15 officer. And I think what affects me 16 more than anything are the people that 17 talk about the Constitution. I know 18 what it is to arrest people, to take 19 their liberties from them, believe me I 20 never had any problem taking anybody's 21 liberty that needed taking. But I also 22 know what affect it has on people, 23 especially for petty crimes. Especially 24 sometimes when they're just held while 25 something else is being investigated 111 1 Stevenson 2 until they can be moved on. And they 3 think they're under arrest. Today 4 pretty much they are. 5 When I started out in this job, 6 stopping them for ten minutes wasn't 7 arresting them, and today if you talk to 8 them and ask for ID you've pretty much 9 arrested them. 10 But I want to talk about the Bill of 11 Rights and the first Ten Amendments that 12 make up the constitution in those Bill 13 of Rights. There is probably nothing 14 more sacred and I'm going to repeat it 15 tonight because I've had some prepared 16 notes. Sometimes a speaker that can't 17 get into things without notes this is 18 not one of them. 19 The Second Amendment couldn't be 20 more precious to anybody, and everybody 21 in this room. The people would no 22 longer give up the First Amendment, the 23 Fourth, Fifth or the Sixth Amendment. 24 And why would the government ever want 25 to tamper with the Second Amendment? 112 1 Stevenson 2 You just would never do such a thing. 3 It is amazing to me that people 4 don't understand one of the simplest 5 sentences that have ever been written, 6 which is that right to keep and bear 7 arms, we heard repeated here a couple of 8 times. Tonight I'm not going to read 9 over that, but it talks about a well 10 regulated malitia. It doesn't say 11 anything about a regulated people. But 12 it says the people can keep and bear 13 arms. And I think that's absolutely a 14 sacred right as part of the United 15 States Constitution and certainly those 16 first Ten Amendments. 17 I left Chicago, you heard this a 18 couple times, I left Chicago on the 28th 19 of December after visiting family there. 20 Back to Ohare Airport to hear about the 21 500th homicide in the city of Chicago. 22 No guns. Can't have a gun. Honest 23 people can't have a gun. There are no 24 permits. 500. 25 Fortunately last month federal 113 1 Stevenson 2 courts have instructed the state of 3 Illinois, which will include the city of 4 Chicago, but of course they think 5 they're in a separate world, so we'll 6 see how that works out. But they now 7 have 160 days to come up with a carry 8 conceal permit law in the State of 9 Illinois. 10 I want to urge this Legislature, 11 you've heard a lot night, I think there 12 is a lot of people here who certainly 13 have some pretty good ideas of where 14 they're going to be voting tomorrow. 15 They certainly know where this body 16 stands tonight. And in deference to the 17 gentleman, I guess he's now left, the 18 last speaker, he got a little bit mixed 19 up on his weapons. He served our 20 country and he certainly has an opinion. 21 And I thank everybody for letting him 22 get that opinion out, maybe as a little 23 bit mixed up as it was. 24 I do want to cover one very 25 disturbing part of this law and I want 114 1 Stevenson 2 to start by saying this law needs to be 3 totally repealed, period, end of case. 4 I don't believe it's Constitutional in 5 and of itself. I think it affects the 6 Commerce clause and I believe it affects 7 several of the amendments if you really 8 read into this and read it carefully. 9 But there is one I find very 10 disturbing it's because I have friends 11 that are combat veterans. It's very ill 12 conceived with portions of the Mental 13 Health Act or Alert as it's referred to 14 in this law. It's too wide open. There 15 is no way in God's good name that when 16 that was written into this law, and the 17 way it was written that there was any 18 thought given to it with health care 19 professionals and with people who know 20 what they're talking about and how to 21 handle things. 22 This law right now very well could 23 affect not only hundreds, thousands of 24 combat veterans and veterans in general 25 ranging from World War II to present who 115 1 Stevenson 2 seek help, and because they seek help 3 and because some untrained individual 4 that they seek help with says, I think 5 this guy is a little strange and I think 6 he's going to go off the deep end here. 7 And he's maybe been a permit holder 8 before he went into the military or 9 after he was in the military or he 10 simply owns a shotgun in this case to go 11 bird hunting. Somebody is going to come 12 and confiscate that gun. That's going 13 to be one of the most egregious things 14 that happens in this law and it needs to 15 be repealed, period. 16 And in closing I would like to close 17 with these remarks for anybody here, 18 that I want to reach out to who's pre- 19 disposed with some idea that they 20 believe in this kind of an ill conceived 21 law or that they think it should stay in 22 place. I don't think it should be 23 picked apart and I don't think anything 24 needs to be corrected here and leave 25 that over there. This needs to be 116 1 Stevenson 2 repealed. Needs to go back on the 3 floor, it needs to spend its 10 months, 4 its 15 months whatever it takes, if 5 they're going to do anything, background 6 checks I don't think too many people 7 here are against it. I'm a law abiding 8 citizens I have no problem with that. 9 What I really have a problem with 10 now is to buy a couple thousand rounds 11 of ammunition I had to drive to 12 Pennsylvania. That stopped me. I'm now 13 a criminal. I keep pushing them in and 14 they keep going until they get to the 15 bottom. So if you're pre-disposed I 16 would ask you with regard to the Second 17 Amendment, what of the other 27 18 Amendments would you like to work on? 19 What else would you like to change 20 Mr. Cuomo, Mr. Anybody, whether it's 21 state or federal government. What of 22 the 27 would you? 23 Would you ignore for instance the 24 14th and 15th Amendment? Which the 25 15th, if any of you have been reading 117 1 Steele 2 the news, is part of the Supreme Court's 3 calendar right now, it is being heard 4 for the last several days. It has to do 5 with the Voting Rights Act. Personally 6 I don't want to see that change, I don't 7 want to ever see that messed with. But 8 would anybody want to see that done? We 9 wouldn't stand for that. We don't want 10 to stand for changing the Second 11 Amendment. Thank you very much. 12 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: John Steele. 13 Daniel Irwin, you're up next. 14 JOHN STEELE: I want to thank the 15 Legislature for letting me speak, and a 16 couple of you may remember a couple 17 e-mails I sent you. 18 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Sure do, John. 19 JOHN STEELE: Mr. Cuomo is fond of 20 saying that if it saves one life it is 21 worth it. Well, I say to Cuomo, the 22 statistics show that nationwide we can 23 argue up to one million lives are saved 24 every year by the use of guns. And we 25 can put this into context, that is less 118 1 Irwin 2 than one percent of homicides in New 3 York State was committed by any type of 4 rifle. When we can compare to that 5 knives, which is over 26 percent. So I 6 wonder where the sudden urgency came 7 from, Mr. Cuomo. 8 And I'm not going to belabor it 9 anymore, everybody said a lot here. To 10 me this law is unethical. The people 11 that voted for it should be ashamed, 12 they should hold their head down. It is 13 illegal to the Second Amendment it's not 14 only our right it's our duty to resist 15 this law. Thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Daniel Irwin? 17 Dan, still here? Keith Dewitt, you're 18 up next. 19 DANIEL IRWIN: This really has been 20 nerve racking, I'm not picturing anybody 21 naked, don't worry; an old trick. 22 Everybody has pretty much said everything 23 I have in my prepared statement so I'm 24 not going to rehash anything. Is the 25 district attorney here. Fitzpatrick 119 1 Irwin 2 here? There is a question I would like 3 to ask him. 4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about the 5 liability insurance they're trying to 6 run? They want to have us -- 7 DANIEL IRWIN: I thought somebody 8 mentioned that. Okay, I'll bring that 9 one up then. Now, somebody did mention 10 it, a thousand dollars a month for each 11 gun or thousand dollars a year for each 12 gun that you have to have. 13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Million dollars 14 for liability. 15 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: For clarification 16 on that issue, on our agenda team we 17 have a resolution opposing that. 18 DANIEL IRWIN: All right, so I won't 19 give you any questions. I'll leave you 20 with some quotes. Going to ask you to 21 guess who they were from. First, "The 22 very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and 23 everywhere restrained evil interference, 24 they deserve a place of honor with all 25 that is good." 120 1 Irwin 2 The second quote. "Firearms stand 3 next in importance to the Constitution 4 itself, they are the American people's 5 liberty team and keystone under 6 independence." 7 And a third, "Government is not 8 reason, it is not eloquent, it is 9 forced. And like fire is a dangerous 10 servant and a fearful master." Anybody 11 know who said that? 12 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George 13 Washington. 14 DANIEL IRWIN: Thank you. A man who 15 had to sell some of his property to take 16 the first presidency of this country, 17 George Washington. Last quote I'm going 18 to leave you with is from Thomas 19 Jefferson. "When the people fear the 20 government there is tyranny. When the 21 government fears the people we have 22 liberty." Thank you very much. 23 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Keith Dewitt. 24 Ken Howe, you're up next. 25 KEITH DEWITT: First of all, I've 121 1 Dewitt 2 got to say I'm rather nervous about 3 speaking in front of a group like this. 4 I'm here to basically warn the County 5 Legislature of the incredible liability 6 adherence to this law is going to open 7 us up to. In that the HIPAA violations 8 mandated by Mr. Cuomo are violating 9 federal law, and the county is going to 10 be in the breeze, I was going to say 11 something else but I won't, if Bob Long 12 the DCS of Onondaga County should report 13 anything that is reported to him about 14 any client. This is privileged 15 information. 16 It has been said that Mr. Cuomo has 17 said that anyone who is reporting this 18 kind of information because of state law 19 will be absolved from all liability. 20 No, it's the primacy clause to the 21 Constitution means that if federal law 22 says no and state law says yes, it's no. 23 We are going to have to pay penalties 24 for the governor's mistakes. 25 If you think the Governor really 122 1 Dewitt 2 cares about this, little thing called 3 law, I would refer you to his good buddy 4 Mayor Bloomberg, who has instituted 5 mental health bench warrants. I don't 6 know if you have heard this, I would 7 refer you to last months New York Post, 8 I know it is not a paragon of 9 journalism. However read it I think 10 it's on the 8th or the 18th. 11 He has a squad of police in New York 12 City that are being told to go out 13 whenever somebody on an AOT order, which 14 was discussed earlier, they can do a 15 computer search and find if that patient 16 has been purchasing their medications. 17 New York State has a computer database 18 called psychy. It tracks controlled 19 substances from pharmacies in the State 20 of New York. What happens if somebody 21 in New York City goes to New Jersey to 22 buy his medicine because those are 23 cheaper? This squad goes out finds the 24 person and either tells them to check 25 into a hospital, a psychiatric hospital 123 1 Howe 2 or arrests them. So there is it is, the 3 precedent is set, we are next. I urge 4 you to please ratify this resolution. 5 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: There are no 6 other speakers scheduled after our next 7 speaker, so if you wanted to say 8 something I'm giving you the next three 9 minutes to get up here and do it, thanks. 10 KEN HOWE: Chairman of the 11 Legislature, thank you, I will be brief. 12 I will say something that has not been 13 said yet. My name is Ken Howe, I'm from 14 Jamesville, New York, I am a disabled 15 veteran and I am not, not a gun owner. 16 I am a businessman. 17 But my grandfather who owned two 18 successful businesses in the city of 19 Syracuse, Meat Town Market on South 20 Salina Street, Packing House Road Cafe 21 when Armory Square was boarded up in a 22 parking lot. I love the city of 23 Syracuse, but I did not locate my 24 business in the city of Syracuse for 25 these reasons. 124 1 Chapman 2 I am afraid that at their will and 3 at their whim government will trample on 4 the rights and pass laws that affect the 5 operation of the community. I located 6 my business in Dewitt. I came back to 7 New York after living 14 years across 8 the country. Maybe I made a mistake by 9 coming back here and starting a 10 business, if this is the environment 11 that the Governor, with his open for 12 business policy, is sending. So maybe I 13 need to do what I did before, and what 14 most of your kids have already done, and 15 that is leave New York State. Thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Thank you all, 17 any other speakers? Guy Chapman, 18 Syracuse, New York. 19 GUY CHAPMAN: Good evening, thank 20 you for your time and your attention. 21 It's been said before just briefly but I 22 want to put a sharper point on it. The 23 Second Amendment is not a hunting 24 amendment. It was said eloquently about 25 George Washington. All the Forefathers 125 1 Chapman 2 were very specific, they didn't mean a 3 hunting party, they didn't mean 4 secondary arms. There were rifle 5 muskets which were cutting edge 6 technology at the time, and it was 7 designed to defend yourself from a 8 government. As the older gentleman was 9 stating, it's not just to take away the 10 government, overthrow the government, 11 it's a government that doesn't represent 12 the people. And that's what it's for. 13 This bill was brought in the dark of 14 night, as has been said. The thing that 15 hasn't been said is what's affected on 16 the small business. There is several 17 legal gun owners and businessmen that 18 sell firearms in this state and locally. 19 With the stroke of a pen a large 20 inventory has been unsalable. These 21 businessmen have not had any opportunity 22 to have the state just buy this back. 23 They have to bear the brunt themselves. 24 It's possible that a million people will 25 be laid off and businesses closed, and 126 1 Chapman 2 it's unreasonable. 3 We have the toughest gun laws in the 4 country as it is, and some of them, I 5 believe all the gun owners believe we do 6 need background checks, we do need some 7 regulation. We don't need our rights 8 infringed. This 7 round magazine is 9 just a figment, as was pointed out it's 10 a minuscule amount of guns that comply 11 with that. This was to take away our 12 guns or make us criminals. Both are 13 wrong. 14 We're law abiding citizens, we don't 15 need to be turned into criminals as it 16 was stated. All of the heinous crimes 17 that aren't even as serious as 18 possessing one of these new horrific 10 19 round magazines, which is the smallest 20 in the country. If I go an hour down 21 the road to Pennsylvania I can buy a 22 larger capacity magazine down there. We 23 have already got restrictive laws, we 24 don't need anymore. It's not going to 25 keep us safe, it's not going to help us. 127 1 Chairman 2 Thank you for your time. 3 CHAIRMAN McMAHON: Any other 4 speakers? Tomorrow at 1 o'clock is our 5 voting session, there will be a vote on 6 the resolution. I'm sure members of the 7 body will deliberate on wording of that 8 over the next few hours. Hopefully 9 we'll see you all in attendance every 10 month going forward. You can exert the 11 same kind of passion at our regular 12 procedural votes. So thank you. Is 13 there any other business before this 14 body from any members of the 15 Legislature? (No response). Committee 16 meeting is closed. 17 * * * * 18 C E R T I F I C A T E 19 This is to certify that I am a Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary 20 Public in and for the State of New York, that I attended and reported the above 21 entitled proceedings, that I have compared the foregoing with my original 22 minutes taken therein and that it is a true and correct transcript thereof and 23 all of the proceedings had therein. 24 _______________________ John F. Drury, CSR, RPR 25 Dated: March 8, 2013